Rockmaster Tx450

peter nap · August 25, 2007, 06:11:31 PM

I've about finished amending the plans and am working on the utilities.

I have agreed to use my carpentry tools and help a friend with his house (nail guns, compressor, generator, saws, sheetrock jacks, etc) in exchange for backhoe and posthole digger use.

He puts in piers for a living so he gets to do the foundation.

Here's the issue I'm dealing with now. I need a well. water is 250' down and I'm thinking about buying a Rockmaster tx450 http://www.rockmasterdrills.com/index.html and drilling my own well and his.

Has anyone tried one and how did it do?

glenn kangiser · August 25, 2007, 09:12:36 PM

I drilled for 10 years, but I did cable tool drilling - percussion -

I never drilled with rotary but have been around the rigs a bit in the oil fields and in developing water wells.

The machine looks interesting. The concept looks good. I think you will find that the drilling rates are listed at a good average maximum and that it will depend a lot on the formation.

Do you know what you would be drilling through. Do you know anybody nearby who may have a copy of a well log to give you some insight as to what is down there?

Please keep us updated on this - thanks.

August 25, 2007, 09:19:06 PM

I'd have to look in my soils book to give you the exact makeup at each level Glen but...in a nutshell, clay and scattered granite but no bedrock. There is also some quartz. Deeper, blue marl.

MountainDon · August 25, 2007, 09:21:23 PM

I wonder if it would handle 500 feet??

glenn kangiser · August 25, 2007, 09:34:15 PM

It said limit is 450 but possibly a slight upgrade -or a bit bigger model could do it.

I do see this as being quite a bit of work but in the old days they even rotary drilled with a horse walking in circles.

August 25, 2007, 09:37:49 PM

I'm going to give an educated juess Don. 20 years ago I was doing the siding on a house and the well driller was using a machine like this. Being nosy, I talked a lot and got some information.

The company sort of says on their site, that it is good to 300 feet. That's due to the mud pump, If you upgraded the pump, I suspect you could drill to China with the machine.

My big worry is the construction of it. It looks a little frail but it also looks like it would hold up if you took it slow and easy. I plan to spend a lot of time withe the manufacturer on the phone next week. I sure would like some references other than the Peace Corps.

glenn kangiser · August 25, 2007, 09:43:10 PM

I just checked - the TX "450" is max depth advised for the unit. The 620 is rated at 620 feet at about twice the cost.

Maybe I need to build one of these for me.

MountainDon · August 25, 2007, 09:46:08 PM

... and then you could rent it out...

glenn kangiser · August 25, 2007, 09:55:07 PM

There you go. I have a place that it would be hard to get a rig into but one of these on a trailer on the Bush Hog could work anywhere. Mine is hardrock though.

I saw a small one like this an old oil field driller made once - it worked but was much smaller - 1/2 inch pipe drill stem. I think he whet about 200 feet with it into unconsolidated (but pretty hard) material.

August 25, 2007, 09:59:51 PM

That's one of the things I want to talk to them about. When I said they hinted...they make the following statement:
It excels when drilling deep wells over 100' to 300'.

Not quite sure what they mean.

glenn kangiser · August 25, 2007, 10:33:40 PM

I would gess that that small drill stem could start making a snakey hole if you weren't careful. One drillere I talked to mentioned using a guide about 20 feet up to keep the hole straight. One more thing to hang up though. I guess their pilot bit is pretty close to the size of the pipe to keep things straight.

n74tg · August 25, 2007, 10:48:07 PM

Wow, what a small world. I worked in offshore oil industry for 20 years; 10 years wireline logging for Schlumberger and 10 years working in drilling (rotary). We did one hole that was 25,000 feet deep. Surface hole was 60" diameter, 24" casing at 10,000 and 8" casing on bottom. Had 450 degree F bottomhole temp.

glenn kangiser · August 26, 2007, 01:20:33 AM

That's a real hole, tony.

I worked in a small oil patch by Fresno, and followed a rig or two around the valley for a bit. I welded on well heads for the BOE - pitcher nipples - repaired mud pump valves - water legs - salt water lines - cut off well heads and shortened the casing as the ground subsided from pumping etc. I was the only welder in our area who could weld the heads on with no problem and test them to 10000 psi without a leak. An old welder gave me pointers on how to do it. Really cut down the learning curve.

One of the cooler jobs we did was to cut a traveling block out of the side of the derrick after the driller got a wobble going and threw it in there. Seems it was about 125 feet up if I remember right. We had to weld the bracing back in after we cut it loose.

Dimitri · August 26, 2007, 12:11:26 PM

QuoteWow, what a small world. I worked in offshore oil industry for 20 years; 10 years wireline logging for Schlumberger and 10 years working in drilling (rotary). We did one hole that was 25,000 feet deep. Surface hole was 60" diameter, 24" casing at 10,000 and 8" casing on bottom. Had 450 degree F bottomhole temp.

Could use it as a big oven if you had a elevator platform for it.

Dimitri

August 27, 2007, 01:22:09 PM

I had a long conversation with the manufacturer today.

The unit will do to a max of 450' because of the mudpump. You can upgrade the pump and go deeper. They only recommend going to 300' because below 300 the discharge slows considerably.

The pilot bit supplied will go through rock and granite unless it is a thick layer or there are lots of layers. Then they suggest the tricone bit.

They guarantee the unit for 2 years.

All in all, I was moderately impressed. I may buy one!

williet · August 27, 2007, 02:04:24 PM

did you get the price of the tricone bit?

peter nap · August 27, 2007, 04:08:42 PM

650.00 for a 6'" bit.

Okie_Bob · August 28, 2007, 06:41:01 AM

Can't believe there are so many 'oilees' in here!!! We used to joke that we'd tell our moms we were piano players in a house of ill repute...instead of working in the oil patch!
I'd go with the bigger tricone bit and the bigger mud pump. Reason being is that you need room in the hole to case the well especially if you plan to use a submersible pump. You will need to pull it on occasion and without a cased hole, it can cave in and you'll never get the pump out. Been there done that. Also, the good water is always deeper than expeced and you don't want to be drinking 'ground water' in my opinion, regardless of where you are located.
I'd drill down thru the water zone, case it with perforated pvc pipe, fill the bottom with gravel, drop in the pump and enjoy the cool fresh water!
Okie Bob
But, what do I know, I'm an 'oilee'.

peter nap · August 28, 2007, 06:51:33 AM

Thanks Bob but the Tricone isn't any bigger. The standard reamer is 6".
I agree on deeper is better and use perf pipe. I was planning on using Sandscreen sections at 10 and 20 feet from the bottom. I might even go a 3rd section depending on where I first hit water.

By code, I have to grout to 50 feet to keep the grounf water out.
Standard casing here is schedule 40 PVC.

glenn kangiser · August 28, 2007, 02:59:41 PM

I assume if drilling a 6 inch hole as your well hole you will later use something like a 5 inch or so well casing and you will first install a 50 foot sealed conductor that is at least 6 1/2 inches or so in an 8 inch or so reamed hole in order that you can grout it into place and still leave a big enough hole to get your 6 inch drill through? This casing is for the sole purpose of keeping surface water out. At the top 50 feet you would have 2 pipes - one 6 1/2 inch conductor and one 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 inch casing to the bottom with screens.

I'm pretty sure you could center a 6 1/2 inch (standard pipe size -) pipe in an 8 inch hole with centering devices then grout it with bentonite pellets that are approved for pouring through water, and you would not have to use concrete grout. The bentonite will seal better than concrete. After the seal is set you would drill your 6 inch hole from the bottom of it down. This way makes a positive seal.

Some don't bother with a good seal like this and just haphazardly seal against the top 50 feet of casing. When I checked the well here at my house I found this to be the case with a failed seal - surface water running in-- and called the driller to come back and reseal it (in his own haphazard little way). This way may or may not seal it but is usually accepted by the health department - if they care to check -(may not care as long as they have your check).

August 28, 2007, 03:53:48 PM

I'm getting well drill burnout on this. I've called rockmaster a half dozen times with different questions and keep getting the same woman that sounds like she should be doing infomercials.

I was looking for a used system on ebay (even though I hate them worse than Walmart) and saw one of the Rockmasters. The fellow sells them new all the time. Called Rockmaster back to see if they would match their price and it turned out to be the owner that sells them. Wouldn't match their price either.

Talked to the state Geologist and he said there was some damn hard bedrock where I was going to dril and the tricone bit wouldn't cut very far. He also said I'd either find a fissure or hit water at less than 100 feet.

Not a real fun day so far!

glenn kangiser · August 28, 2007, 04:00:05 PM

I was wondering about the tricone bit because typically on oil rigs they have tons of weight on them to make them cut. I don't think this little rig will have enough weight to make the tricone cut something really hard. I think a down the hole hammer would be necessary for speed.

peter nap · August 28, 2007, 04:10:27 PM

I've been reading about how the peace corps does it. They anchor the hell out of them like a circus tent and use the winch to add some pressure.

glenn kangiser · August 28, 2007, 04:23:02 PM

Watch out that it dosen't come up underneath you. These things tend to act like a snake if you add pressure.

We have a major big rotary drilling company here we call Crooked Hole Myers. They are famous for being able to drill "S" shaped holes that you have a hard time getting a pump into.

Still, I'm interested in learning all you can teach me about this if you do it. Just pointing out the possibilities.

You might also look for a used Cable tool rig. They are pretty easy to learn to run but still have their dangers. A fellow I heard of lost the back of his foot and another driller dropped his wife about 20 feet from the derrick. He used to hoist her up with a harness so she could put the bailer into the casing. That way he could use 20 foot joints of casing. My son got his arm ripped off above the wrist on one. They were able to put it back together and pretty fully functional by transferring 1/2 of the lower finger tendons to the top to bring his fingers back up and put a screw into his thumb joint to keep it straight. He was a competent driller - just a freak accident.

peter nap · August 28, 2007, 04:32:49 PM

Quote
Still, I'm interested in learning all you can teach me about this if you do it. Just pointing out the possibilities.

Right now, I'd say it's a learning experience for us all Glen

I wish I had access to the head. I'd build my own. I am a long time hobby blacksmith and muzzle loader builder and I am famous for overbuilding everything. My wife laughs when she talks about my sturdy construction.

After looking at all the pictures and specs.....none of those small units come up to my idea of STURDY.