Small wood stoves (again, and again, and again......)

[NM_Shooter]

Got a lot done on my cabin this weekend.  I think it is pretty much weather tight for the winter with just one more trip.  Need to caulk and then stretch wire across the bottom of the cabin.  But man.... it is already cold up there at night.  On a clear night it will be well below freezing. 

Plans for the weekend are the above, and insulation of the cabin.  I've been thinking about heat, and was looking through the postings here for small wood stoves.  My cabin is pretty small.  Only 280sq, no loft, 8' ceiling.  I think that if I get any sort of fire built in even the smallest wood stove I won't be able to stay in there. 

Mtn Don's VC Aspen looks nice, with the thermostat control too.  But I think that anything I put in that shell is going to overheat.  I just can't afford a boat stove. 

Is it possible to use a thermostat controlled woodstove and keep a small fire intact for a decent amount of time, or am I fooling myself?  Maybe if I use double wall vent?

My plan is to have an RV furnace as a means for keeping the chill out late at night, and to use the stove in the evening to warm the cabin before bed. 

Will a stove be more hassle than worth?

Thanks for any comments...

Frank

[Bishopknight]

I've seen small wood stoves, but for something that small, honestly, I'd get a used empire heater on craigslist with a propane tank. Direct vent through the wall so it doesnt use the oxygen inside for combustion. You can get them for < $200.

http://www.empirecomfort.com/

[JRR]

For me, in such a small living space, burning wood would be a hassle ... and a safety/venting concern.  Small wood stoves require small wood ... and that can mean even more wood-fuel preparation; more sawing/chopping so the wood will fit the stove.  Nothing like a huge stove/fireplace that will accept a huge piece of wood a couple of times a day.

Of course, if the cabin is to be a "week-ender" instead of an all-time home, then everything changes again.  A small wood stove could be part of the get-away charm of the place.

[MikeT]

I have a larger space but a medium sized wood stove, a Jotul.  I like it.  The comment about the cutting of smaller size logs is well taken.  I have to cut my logs by a third to fit easily.

That said, I did a quick Googe search on "small wood stoves" and came up with other options.  Before that was going to recommend the smallest Jotul stove, but in this Google link, it shows up as the first recommendation!  Other interesting ideas are included below:

http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000666.php

[Squirl]

Thanks for the advice Bishop.  I was just looking for a vented propane heater for a one room small 500 sq.ft. place to pass code. Now that I know what I am looking for, I am finding many on craigslist for under $200.  New ventless ones cost around the same and can't be used for code.

[ScottA]

Northern tool has a little stove for about 200 bucks. Not sure the quality is much to rave about. I'm going with the Jotul 602 in my cabin. It runs about 900. You won't get more than 4-5 hours of burn from these little stoves so using lots of mass around the stove helps retain the heat longer. If nothing else you can place several large glass or metal containers of water near the stove for added mass.

[rick91351]

Frank I really like your idea of the RV furnace.  They are sort of expensive.  However you should be able to match one up for the size of your cabin pretty easily.  One might be had from salvage from a wrecked motor home or fifth wheel.  You can also duct the heat where you need it to go, that should be all you really need.  Also saves space taken up with a stove. 

[MountainDon]

My plan is to have an RV furnace as a means for keeping the chill out late at night, and to use the stove in the evening to warm the cabin before bed.  

Will a stove be more hassle than worth?

Hmmm. On the one hand, if you do a half way decent job on the insulation your cabin will be much better insulated than any RV other than the real expensive ones. Therefore I think the RV furnace (25K BTU?) you have should work quite well. Before our cabin was done we spent nearly two years living in our old '83 GMC motor home. We stayed warm even in December, but used a lot of propane and battery as it had only 1.5 inch thick walls.

On the other hand it's a shame to have to pay for and haul propane when there's firewood all over the place.  


To be candid I have made a few fires that made our cabin too warm, however I have hit it right a good number of times as well. The key there is getting to know your stove. As well I believe you must begin with a well made stove in order to stand a chance of holding the fire down.

Small cabins with wood stoves have two ways to regulate heat. One is the size or strength of the fire. The other involves opening and closing doors and/or windows.   

In your case I almost want to say go with just the RV furnace, a good battery setup and a small PV array to keep the batteries up over the long winter. Or haul the batteries out in the fall. I didn't like that idea so I installed 30 watts worth of panels and those kept the batteries up all winter. If you go with the RV furnace you'll need to pack in the propane but depending on how much use your cabin gets it might be more cost effective and simpler than a wood burner stove. You'd also have to pack in the generator and fuel, or leave a generator on site, for recharging the batteries. Or do a bigger PV array. Using just the RV furnace frees up some interior space as well. You could always think about adding a wood burner at a later date.  

[NM_Shooter]

Thanks Don... my dilemma exactly. 

I don't think that it will take much propane / batteries to keep the place warm overnight, especially since I dropped the ceiling.  But I think getting the chill out of the walls at night (the first night especially) could be a challenge, and I'd like to do that with wood. 

I may give it a try this season and see how it goes with just the RV heater. Maybe bring up a full bottle of propane, use it for my elk hunt, and see how much gas I use.  I've got two good batteries and a 53W panel to use along with it.  I should check the 12V current draw on that heater.

Nothing like an acid test.

Also... I have a very juicy South wall that gets a ton of sun in the cold months.  I have been thinking about hanging a passive collector on the side of the cabin and seeing if that helps with getting the chill out.


BTW... I bought a nice Amana RV range / oven off of ebay that I am waiting for delivery.  I am excited about the thought of having an oven for baked goods up there!

[MountainDon]

  on the range.


Our RV furnace draws 3 amps, more or less with the blower running.  The one thing I don't like about standard RV furnaces is their dumb control board. They allow three tries at ignition before ceasing to try to light. Unfortunately they leave the blower motor running if the thermostat is asking for heat.  If you ever need to replace the board there are "Dinosaur" replacement boards available that have an added feature. After three unsuccessful attempts at ignition the board shuts everything down.


I would think a hot air panel with a small solar PV panel connected to a blower would help warm things up. The blower would make warm up faster and only run when the sun shines.

[rick91351]

We replaced the board in our wheel with a Dinosaur.  It seems to ignite a lot better and runs better as well.

Smells like biscuits in the oven and an elk steak in the pan.  

 

[cordwood]

 A big stove with a small fire will heat less than a small stove with a small fire. You can let more unwanted heat out of the big stove without it radiating into the room. Problem is trying to cook on a bigger stove To get the top hot enough to perk coffee you will have all the doors and windows open just to breath. I have had some luck with elevated grates in larger stoves but the can still be a pain sometimes.
I would still have a wood heat appliance for back up JIC. Hypothermia seems like a terrible wat to die on dry land.

[Beavers]

I'm also in the market for a small stove.  The problem I've found is that most if not all the cheaper stoves require a ton of wall clearance. (some need 36"!) 

I don't understand that...if you need a small stove for a small space you probably don't have the floor space to have 3 foot of clearance around your stove,  doesn't make much sense! 

I've looked at the Jotul and the Vermont Castings Aspen.  I've decided on the Aspen just because I like the looks of it better than the Jotul.  It also only needs 11'" of clearance.

I've got to get it ordered within the next couple of weeks.  The local Vermont Castings dealer said that if  I wait too long to order it, "don't expect to see it until spring".  She said they only do short productions runs on each model of stove, and they don't produce a huge number at a time, once they are out it might be two or three months before they make more of that model again.  She also said that the smaller stoves like the Aspen are less popular and the dry spells between runs can be longer than the more popular models.  Just an FYI if you need a stove this winter.

[MountainDon]

The clearances on the stoves like the Aspen are reduced by the use of the firebrick lining used in the firebox sides. There's also firebrick above the firebox but that's there to help maintain higher temperatures in the irebox rather than for clearances. The sidewall firebrick also maintains firebox temperatures and that assists the clean burn. There are also fresh air induction tubes across the top of the firebox. Those introduce pre heated air that aids in cleaner combustion.

The cheapie stoves like some of the Vogelzang have cast iron sides and that's all. They can radiate more heat; hence the greater clearances.

When we bought ours the dealer had several in stock. Guess we were fortunate. Although I do recall when I phoned them they only had the floor model and he tagged it for us. Two weeks later when I went to pick it up they had rceived new ones so I got one in a crate.

[Beavers]

Don,

What time of the year did you get your Aspen?  The dealer said that if I wait until the October or later I most likely wouldn't see my stove until spring, since that is the height of stove buying season.  Just curious as to weather there really is a stove shortage, or if they just really want to sell me a stove in a hurry. 

[MountainDon]

I picked it up from the Santa Fe dealer September 6, 2008. A year ago in a few days.


I had originally talked to him in the fall of 2007. The only caveat he had at that time was that if I waited until spring of 2008 the price would likely be up. We were no wheres near ready to buy it in '07; no place to store it and it's heavy to move around. He said prices usually change in the spring. He was right, it cost an extra $50 in Sept '08.

[MountainDon]

Think about getting the fresh air kit. It made our stove work better; cabin's too tight I guess.


One thing that made the installation go smoother was the telescoping black pipe for the stove to insulated chimney connection. It was pricey ($78) but is made from two sections of heavy gauge steel. The pipe sections have welded seams, not the roll and fold seam. One fits snugly inside the other. It offers a wide range of height adjustability and there's no wiggling, tilting or fooling around to get the pipe in place and connected. The upper and lower ends are secured to the thimble and the stove with screws. Any length expansion or contraction with temp changes is taken up by the slide connection. It's not a VC item, but an accessory company.

Cleaning is easy too. Slide the pipe up. Place a garbage bag and can under the opening. Clean from the roof. Remove the sweepings in the bag (The can is there for insurance if the bag breaks.) and re-connect the pipe to the stove.

[cordwood]

 The price of steel is a lot lower now than it was then, Should affect stove prices a little I would hope! .......Probably not though

[Beavers]

Thanks for the tips Don.  I'll check out the fresh air kit.

Have you had a chance to run your stove much?  Does it roast you out of the cabin?  I realize it depends on the wood (I've got mostly Ash), but how about burn time...does it make it through the night without stoking?

[MountainDon]

We burn Ponderosa Pine mainly with a smattering of Aspen thrown in. No hardwoods to speak of here, though I did have a piece of Burr Oak that was big enough for maybe two fires.

Anyhow, we used it through the fall up to Dec 15 last year nearly every weekend. After that we snowshoed in a few times. That was with the walls complete with R19 and R25 in the floor. The ceiling at that time only had R13.

With snow laying around on the ground and the lows hitting the teens it did take a while to get the cabin warmed up from cold... 6 hours to be comfortable. After the cabin was warmed up I did overheat the interior a few times. I had to resort to controlling the temperature with the window "thermostats".  I usually stoked the stove about 11 PM and would then go to bed. Most mornings the cabin would be down to 60 with some wood/coals still active. I likely could have had it warmer but we like it to be cooler at night than during the day.

Now this summer we increased the ceiling insulation to about R45. We immediately felt the difference in the interior not getting as hot on the hot days. I believe the interior should warm up quicker and stay warmer as well in the winter now. I also have the RCH ceiling fan hooked up and that should help in distributing heat to warm up quicker as well.

I don't know if you noticed in my cabin topic but after installing the fresh air kit I mounted a muffin fan on the exterior end. It blows air in and makes starting a fire easy as falling of a log. I use a handful of pine needles, some kindling, set fire to the needles, close the foor and flip the switch. Presto!  It's not a factory approved option but it works for us. The fan does not seem to be an obstruction when it is turned off.

The fresh air kit

Topic link with more pictures   http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.msg90015#msg90015

The muffin fan, 120 VAC


Topic link   http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.msg91874#msg91874

[ScottA]

Nice idea Don. I've used a blow drier to get a fire going in a hurry before. 

[MountainDon]

It was actually Karen's idea. She asked one day, "Could you put a fan on it to blow more air in?"


I had the fan sitting on a shelf from when our son and I used to race R/C cars.

[cordwood]

Nice idea Don. I've used a blow drier to get a fire going in a hurry before. 

My first forge for horse shoeing was a big truck brake drum filed with coal and the wifes hair dryer! I still use her new one if i have to get wet wood started

[Beavers]

Thanks for the review of the Aspen, Don.

This will be my first wood stove so I wasn't sure what kind of performance to expect from it.  I noticed the pic of your muffin fan stove turbocharger on your building thread, I like that idea! 

[OlJarhead]

http://dickinsonmarine.com/dheaters.php
Found this today (was looking for it previously)...I'm kinda interested in the solid fuel stove for an outhouse...thoughts?