Shower surround help needed

[Okie_Bob]

Surrond is made of 3/4" plywood and the pan was factory made and installed with drain.
I had planned to use 1/2" green sheetrock on the inside and then tile from floor to ceiling. Now I see that 'wonder board' is recommended in a Home Depot DIY ad in their tile dept and can't decide if maybe I should use it instead of the green sheetrock?
Also, since I've never laid ceramic tile before, do I have to put up any kind of screen over the sheetrock/wonder board or can I just put the thinset directly on the sheetrock/wonderboard and tile away? I have no experience with ceramic tile and can use some help. Most everything I've been able to read talks about how to install tile on floors but, not much on verticle walls.
Okie Bob

[jonseyhay]

Hi Bob.
A site that might help you.
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/flooring/tile/prep1/cement_backer.htm

These guys use thin-set, which is an adhesive mortar, to mount the tile. This should work on the wall as well. I don't have any experience with this stuff (not available over here). We use a Hardie product that is similar although not as porous as this seems to be. Link below look for the tech manuals, you should find what you need there.

http://www.jameshardie.com.au/Products/InternalLinings/HardiGlazeTileSheets/
jonsey

Sorry Bob,
That one was the wrong stuff but it looks like it may be worth looking at, so I have left it, try this one.

http://www.jameshardie.com.au/Products/InternalLinings/VillaboardLining/

[glenn-k]

I always use the Wonder Board / cement board product.  I have seen mold on green board and believe if I remember right that you have to skim the surface with a waterproof cement or something to use it for tile.  The thinset can go directly on the wall and tile on that - make sure the cement is for use on walls.  Natural stone takes a different stronger cement. If using square tiles get the little rubber or plastic spacers to keep the rows of tile lined up, install the tiles then pick them out before grouting.  Let the cement dry before grouting, so you don't mess up your tiles.

Get a grout bag to put the grout in -squeeze it into the cracks neatly without excessive regard for look at this point,-let  it set a bit til firm, then take a tool and remove the excess surface grout down to the sharp edge of the tile.  After the grout is set up a little, a wet sponge can clean the cracks and tile surface.  Hope this is understandable and helps.

[spinnm]

Green board will soon be against code in wet areas if not already adopted where you are.

Anybody say to staple up heavy mil plastic underneath?  Keeps the water off the framing.  Grout is only water resistant, not water proof.  Your plywood is not necessary and might cause you problems later.  The CBUs (cement board underlayment) are meant to rest in that little channel that's preformed in the store bought shower pans.

The pros all hang out at www.johnbridge.com.  They're willing to answer any and all questions.

If you want to buy a book, get the one by John Bridge or Michael Byrne.  Don't waste your $$ on the HD one.

Use thinset, not mastic.  No mastic in wet areas.  It's water soluble.

If it's a 3 wall surround, one of those little laser levels is handy....but plenty of tile went up b4 they were invented.

Renting a tile saw for a day makes the job easier.  If you're lucky, you can put up the whole tiles first, then make all your cuts at once.  I never get lucky.  I'd rather rent a great saw for a day or so than deal with the cheapies.

Key to a pro job is the layout, I think.  Taking time to decide where to start, where the cuts will be and how they will look.  That, and making sure that you're level and plumb as you go.

You might check for tile at a wholesaler/distributor.  I find the prices at HD/Lowes high.  If you tell them you're an owner/builder they should give you the prices they give to a GC.  Not as much discount as the tile guys get, but enough to make it worthwhile.

If you stick to an inexpensive 4" tile and get your wow from pattern and maybe some fancy trim pieces, you'll be amazed at how reasonable it is.

[glenn-k]

I used 30lb felt behind mine- don't remember where I read that - may not be the right thing.

Another thing that comes in handy is a 4" diamond blade for dry cutting tile on a small hand held grinder and I have used it instead of a tile saw in places- a bit dusty cutting dry and you have to cut slowly so as not to overheat and chip edges. I did multiple passes to keep from overheating when I used it to inlay a strip of floor tile color into stove island tile to give a matching but contrasting band of color diagonally across the island.  What the heck did I just say

[spinnm]

Glenn's right.  Felt is fine too.

And, I have no idea what you just said.

[Okie_Bob]

You guys/ladies are the greatest!! I knew I could depend on you to do the work for me...now if you'd all come to Tx to do the actual 'labor' I'd provide the beer and bbq.
The stall is lined with 3/4" plywood simply because I made a mistake in placing the drain and had to build up the wall. Yes, the shower pan has a recess lip on the top around the 3 edges to place the wallboard.
I did not put up plastic or felt behind the plywood thinking if I tiled it right, using the correct wallboard, I wouldn't need it. Should I tear out the playwood and put up felt?
Jonsay, I have not seen the Hardi product shown in your link, could it be it's only available down under? Noticed all measurements were in mm so suspect this is only available outside the USA?  And as usual, all tile installation books seem to only show installation on floors...never on shower stall walls.
Definately plan on renting a wet saw, feel it would be a good investment and prevent a lot of dust, per Glenn's comments.
Guess I'll get the cement type backing material and forget the green sheetrock although there are no codes to worry about in my little piece of heaven!
Okie Bob

[jonsey/downunder]

Bob,
The site I directed you to is the Australian one. James Hardie just recently moved their headquarters offshore. I have noticed more of their products becoming available in your country. I will see if I can find the link to the US site for you. As for the tile cutting simple straight cuts can be done with a glass cutter and snap system, you may be able to find this type of tile cutter in a hardware store near you.
Here is a link
 http://www.toolking.com/mkdiamond/view.asp?id=1493
If you are using the tile backer, a latex paint may be all you need on the ply.
Tiles on shower walls here, are usually put on with rubber-based glue. This is simply spread on the villa board with a notched trowel. Setout is the important part; you need to work out how your cut tiles will end up. If you are using any sealers, don't spread with bare fingers. (It causes mould)
jonesy
Here you go
http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner.htm

http://www.jameshardie.com/backerboard/default.php

[glenn kangiser]

Not quite sure how your doing this Bob but if I gather right I think you can put the felt over the plywood under the tile backer board so any lost moisture will drain off the felt into the pan.  I used the flexible PVC pan liner then concrete and slate with pea gravel exposed in the grout lines allowing them to be quite wide with no problem per a nice knowledgeable young fellow at Home Depot who had worked with a pro.

[Okie_Bob]

Jonsey, your link showed my local dealer is Home Depot, guess I missed the backerboard while drooling over the power tools somehow!
Glenn, can you send a pic of your showerstall? Not sure I understand what you have done but, it sounds interesting.
The last sentence in the installation section of the Hardie site says to install a vapor barrier behind the backerboard so guess that pretty well answers my question. Not sure I understand why I need it since my surround is all plywood but, I'll get 'er done!
I do have one more question: I have not installed the shower mixer valve mainly because the installation instructions are less than helpful. Seems the guy that wrote the instructions had his brain sucked out by a guanna or a West Nile infected skeeter or something.
The valve comes with a circular black plastic cover and I'm not sure if it is to be flush with the backerboard or set out to be flush with the finished tile. Makes a huge difference and I'd hate to have to redo this job a couple of times like I seem to end up doing with everything else! Can you guys help me out here?
Okie Bob

[jonsey/downunder]

Hi Bob,
 The vapor barrier they are talking about is to stop any moisture getting into the wall cavity and rotting out the frame. The ply itself would act, as a sort of barrier but would still be subject to some moisture damage. To deal with that you can use the felt as Glenn suggests between the ply and the tile backer. The backer you are using according to the literature seems to be porous so that would be the best option. The Hardie backer is not as porous and I think you could probably get away with a good sealer coat on the ply. The Hardie tech manuals on the Australian site are worth downloading and would be a good guide for most of these sort of jobs, even if using other products.
BTW, If you use the thin coat cement for the tiling, add a bit of vinstick into it. Vinstick is basically pva glue and that is what I normally use. It's a bit cheaper than the stuff most hardware stores try to sell you. About a tablespoon to a bucket of mortar works fine.
If you are talking about the faceplate of the mixer, that would normally have the tile run behind. Not being able to see the unit you have I can't be much more help than that.
jonesy.

[glenn kangiser]

That little temporary plastic plate is flush with the finished wall then when done it is removed and the chrome face plate is installed permanently.  This also leaves access to your cartridge to replace or repair it later.  Double check your instructions to make sure I'm not misinforming you.

As Jonesy says, cement board is a bit porous.  I sealed the joints with neat cement and fiber wall board tape- neat cement is cement and water -no sand -although fine sand may work- probably not necessary but seemed like a good idea to me.  The felt will keep your plywood from rotting and getting wet plywood bugs and rot.

[DavidLeBlanc]

From what I have read, felt paper sounds like an astoundingly bad idea. It's not impermeable and thus could allow it's wet self to rot any framing it's in contact with.

I thought the "gold standard" for "sheathing" behind showers and the like was some stuff called Blue board. Is this similar to the Green board y'all are talking about.

Also seems to me that either This Old House or Hometime featured a new backer board product for tiling applications in the past few months. Might be worthwhile to snoop their sites (I'd lean towards the Hometime site first!).

Edited to add: In all the home improvement/renovation shows I've watched, I can't ever recall any of them using plywood as backing underlayment for tub/shower surrounds. Floors: yes, but not otherwise.

[glenn kangiser]

Actually felt seems to be highly recommended by shower tile people with some saying it's unnecessary but others saying that causes problems.  I used 30#-- they were recommending 15# which is even less moisture resistant.  Someone told me to use the heavier felt- don't remember who.   Keep in mind that this is asphalt impregnated roofing felt that has performed better than house wraps in many applications and has kept millions of roofs dry for years (under the final roof covering).  A light felt is also under some types of stucco netting and applied directly to the framing members again -having a better record than the new house wraps.

Even with a long shower roofing felt will probably get near no exposure to water if the tile is installed properly- and what does get should eventually make its way to the pan.  Felt and cement board go over inside lip of pan or liner to route lost moisture back into the shower pan

Link to a pro-con discussion on felt behind cement board.  I think this is the one Shelly recommended earlier also.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-125.htm

Another place on the same forum a pro named Jason comments, when asked about felt- "15# roofing felt is my choice for vapor barrier. I'm sure he'll be fine."l

Another named Bob on the same forum states, "
The tile handbooks says to use a vapor barrier on all shower walls, both exterior and interior. On exterior walls where a vapor barrier is integeral to the insulation, such as kraft-faced fiberglass, we always suggest slitting the kraft paper and then installing 6-mil poly sheet or 15 lb roofing felt. This is because we place the bottom edge of the vapor barrier inside the shower pan or tub flange.

We don't put a vapor barrier on the ceiling. Water doesn't hit the ceiling often, and the attic temperatures and insulation are usually sufficient to prevent what little condensation there might be.

We don't recommend a roll-on or surface waterproofer unless 1) you forgot to install the vapor barrier , or 2) you have horizontal surfaces in the water spray path (niches and benches). The stuff is expensive and messy, whereas plastic sheeting is cheap and easy."

For more good reading check out this search of their forum.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=233869

[Okie_Bob]

David, I have never heard of nor seen anything called 'blueboard'.... Home Depot certainly doesn't have any in sight.
The links Glenn sent and everything else I've found demand a vapor barrier behind the backerboard for all the reasons discussed.
So, I'm ready to go. I will use 30# felt on top of my plywood surrond. Then place the backerboard and tape with fiberglass and bed all joints. Then the thinset and tile.
Jonsey, where do you buy the 'Vinstick'? Never heard of this either.
I'm going to install the mixer valve after I finish the tile as I have free access to the back of the wall the mixer goes into.
If anyone disagrees with this, please speak up before I do something wrong!
Thanks to all of you, I may actually finish up this project this year!
Okie Bob

[jonsey/downunder]

Bob
The blue board David is referring to I think, is this stuff
http://www.unifixinc.com/products/products.htm

It is similar to Hardie backer in that it is a cement-based product. The green board has a gypsum core and I would not recommend using that with tiles. I think you should be fine with the felt in your situation. Just a thought, if you can run the backer vertical in the shower recess so you only have the joints in the corner. A good gal corner flashing behind that and I don't see you having any problems. Vinstick is basically the same as pva woodworking glue. As glue its not considered waterproof but mixed with cement it acts as an extra sticking agent. It's also used in fire retardant mortars. Just get some pva glue (Plain old white glue) and use that, you probably have some hanging around already in your workshop. It's not important how much you use. I usually just fire a good dollop in the bucket with the mortar and mix it in.
jonesy
Look here

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/pvaadhesive.htm

[glenn kangiser]

Jonesy, I haven't seen the good gal on the corner flashing, but she does seem to have attracted many of our pollies over the years.  Must have been the short skirt and fishnet stockings.

[Okie_Bob]

Ok Glenn, I'm pretty sure Jonsey isn't refering to a little cutie in a short skirt!!! (could be wrong, knowing Jonsey a bit!) But, I can tell you for sure I have a real language problem with the 'bloke' and don't have a clue what a 'good girl corner flashing' might be...now don't start me guessing with my perverted mind!
A little help here Jonsey or Glenn?

The blueboard and Hardi backer board looks like the 'Wonder board' found in my local Home Depot. I can't tell that one is anybetter than another, all seem about the same to me.
Guess I have to ask another question now, once the backerboard is up, do I need to tape the joints and if so, what do I use? I used the new fiberglass tape throughout the rest of the structure and like it a lot. Should I use this with another type of material to mud it in? Is this necessary when I'll be putting ceramic tile over the backerboard? And I'll use the PVC glue mixed into the thinset as per Jonsey's recommendation.
Okie Bob

[glenn kangiser]

Jonesy said pva glue - not the same as pvc glue.  I don't know exactly what his product is but I assume its something like an acrylic modifier like acrylic cement additive. I'm sure I remember seeing acrylic additive type thinsets at Home Depot.  Similar to concrete bonder or sealer.

I assume the flashing is just a corner flashing that goes under the blue or cement board in each corner but over the pan at the bottom to make flashing easy. It could be taken care of with the felt or plastic vapor barrier also- make sure it drains into the shower pan -not behind it.  I used the same tape you like over joints then neat cement-cement and water- you could probably use some of the thinset as you do it also.

[jonsey/downunder]

You got it Glenn,
It's just good old plain wood or paper glue. When they call it vinstick, concrete bonder - sealer or whatever else, they charge twice the normal price.  The good old gal is just a thin galvanized corner flashing, felt would be fine. All we are trying to do is stop any moisture getting to the timber.
jonesy
 
Late night is it mate.

[Okie_Bob]

Hey, you guys are not only good, now you are quick too!
Understand about keeping the drainage into the shower pan and think I'll just go with 30# felt wrapped inside, instead of galvanised flashing in the corners.
Mind was wandering when I typed PCC, knowing that is not what we were talking about. Looked at the links supplied by our frind Jonsey so knew what he meant.
Now if I could just get you guys to come do the installation......
Okie Bob

[jonsey/downunder]

Get the beer ready Bob, we'll be right over.
jonsey

[glenn kangiser]

Up early to go to work in
San Jose, Jonesy- had to check in and see if anyone was in dire straights.