Fire Egress required from loft?

NM_Shooter · December 09, 2007, 03:37:29 PM

Greetings!

I have a question for you..I am planning on a 16X24 cabin, with a loft over the back half. Does the loft require a fire egress window?

Thanks,

Frank

StinkerBell · December 09, 2007, 03:40:21 PM

Thats a really great question I do not have an answer for.

December 09, 2007, 04:27:59 PM

IRC2003 states that "every sleeping room shall have at least one openable emergency escape or rescue opening".

IRC2003 section R310

link to IRC2003 here

StinkerBell · December 09, 2007, 05:21:38 PM

Now by not placing a closet in such room, the room is designated as something else, yes?

MountainDon · December 09, 2007, 05:31:28 PM

Probably, technically.

But in good conscience I couldn't place any my family members in a room to sleep/live without a secondary emergency exit, or rescue access. Even those I may have issues with.

I believe this may be a case where I have no fault to find with the regulations.

December 09, 2007, 05:40:03 PM

Not even an Evil In Law?

Redoverfarm · December 09, 2007, 05:53:36 PM

Most Loft contain at least one window. They would be pretty dark if they didn't. Would an escape ladder that you through out the window be OK. Of course open the window before in case the fire was a false alarm.

John Raabe · December 09, 2007, 06:18:59 PM

A local window supplier or a window catalog will note which windows are suitable for code egress. Yes, a throw out ladder would be a very good safety feature on a window you wouldn't want to jump out of.

Don't play code games here... if you ever had some kids caught up there in a fire or other emergency you would have a hard time forgiving yourself. Any sleeping room should have two ways to get safely outside. Period!

PS - An egress window is actually designed as much for a fireman to get in as for you to get out. (He carries an air tank on his back.)

peternap · December 09, 2007, 06:25:35 PM

Don't play code games here... if you ever had some kids caught up there in a fire or other emergency you would have a hard time forgiving yourself. Any sleeping room should have two ways to get safely outside. Period!

Very Well Put John!!!!!!

December 09, 2007, 06:39:54 PM

Wasn't trying to offend. Was joking with the evil in law comment. However I was suggesting that if there is no closet the room can be designated for something else like storage. Or maybe a play area (no sleeping). I was not clear in the expression process, sorry about that.

MountainDon · December 09, 2007, 06:52:53 PM

Well, myself, if the space is anything but a storage area I'd have an opening "just in case". Fires don't just break out when you're sleeping. If the space is used for play, study, meditation, it should be provided with access/egress as far as I'm concerned.

peternap · December 09, 2007, 07:05:52 PM

Wasn't trying to offend. Was joking with the evil in law comment.

You didn't offend me Stinkerbell. There is no greater scofflaw than me, when it comes to stupid or non applicable building codes. I do need a kick in the butt for safety once in a while and John does it well. My comment was more a thank you...to him. than a post on your question.

NM_Shooter · December 09, 2007, 08:04:04 PM

Thanks for the replies...

I had planned on putting in a window, but was trying to figure out how big it might need to be. The loft I am planning does not have a lot of room, and a 2' X 2' casement window was what I was planning on. May have to go bigger though, as I think this would be a good place to err on the side of caution. I would bet that a 2020 window is not big enough for large people to qualify as an emergency egress.

BTW...The closest fire truck would be 2 hours away, assuming it was light out and no mud (fat chance).

Anybody know the minimum size for an egress window?

Thanks,

Frank

StinkerBell · December 09, 2007, 08:14:12 PM

I am here to learn too

. It is nice to have people comfortable enough to be forthright

.

December 09, 2007, 08:15:33 PM

well, what do you know. I can google:

http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=18086

That is a pretty large window, even using the casement. I'm going to have to consider this a bit more. I wonder if I could make a smaller window in a section of a wall panel that drops away... Problem with that:

What if wall section sticks?
What if kids are not strong enough to release the panel?
No access from outside.

Hmmmm.

-f-
EDIT: fixed link MD

peternap · December 09, 2007, 08:49:54 PM

Why not use a hayloft style door. You can latch it from the inside and it will just swing open. Believe me, if the FD wants it open, they can open it.

Redoverfarm · December 09, 2007, 11:16:02 PM

NM is the 2020 size set in stone. Who would ever know if you installed a 3030 or bigger and dropped it down a little in the wall. If you are going to use this as an egress then the style window should also be looked at.

desdawg · December 10, 2007, 08:47:04 AM

I think an open loft is one of the last places I would want to be during a fire. I hadn't really thought about it before.

CWhite · December 10, 2007, 09:22:03 AM

This is a little off topic, but for rural living, you have to be your own fire house really. If there is a fire, you have to get you and your family out safely without help. A fire escape is not too much to ask, even if it's a jump from a window to a porch roof, and then to a rain barrel, and down.

From the "burned out houses" that I've noticed for many years, it seems like a built in sky light is the most effective way to make sure the house burns up quickly and dramatically. Those things become chimneys after they melt or break out, and the rest is just a matter of minutes for the fire to do the rest.

I had sky lights in a house once, and I'm glad I don't now. I do have fire escape routes from the windows to roofs outside.
Just a thought.
Christina

MikeT · December 10, 2007, 09:55:11 AM

Even though the house I am building on the Oregon coast gets fire protection from the local dept, I am going ahead and installing a fire suppression sprinkler system. I would think that for a cabin that is way off the beaten track, this would be even more important. For most of us, the country homes or cabins are not that large so one wouldn't need that many sprinklers to cover the rooms and lofts. Just sayin...

December 10, 2007, 12:25:55 PM

Hi.. thanks for the replies. I think this is an important topic. I am going to have two lofts, one in the back of the cabin, and the other over a large porch. I am redesigning the pitch of the roof to accommodate a casement style egress windows. Each loft will have a permanently mounted rope ladder in a box under the window sill. I tend to be paranoid about stuff like this.

This cabin is going to be extra deep into the wild. No utilities, no effective way to do fire supression in a low cost way. I'll have several extinguishers handy, but if it catches, so be it. My dad was a fireman, and stories about folks darting back inside to retrieve something almost never have happy endings.

Frank

P.S. Check your smoke detector batteries.

tanya · December 10, 2007, 12:30:20 PM

You can put a little porch off of the window/door and definately use a sprinkler system even if it is just a hose and a sprinkler you can turn on at the faucet I don't know why every house doesn't have some sort of sprinkler system and every upstairs room, loft or whatever should have outside access and you can open the windows in the summer to cool the place down. There have been several fires in our area over the past several years and they all have one thing in common, minutes and even seconds count!!! Don't forget several working smoke alarms and fire extinguishers on every level too. I have a friend who lost everything and they were all home enjoying a big dinner with family and friends the entire upstairs was on fire and no one even noticed until embers were falling on their heads. They barely got out with their lives.

glenn kangiser · December 10, 2007, 12:48:09 PM

CPVC plastic can be used for sprinkler systems. Here's a start on info.

http://www.harvelsprinklerpipe.com/?source=google&adgroup=blazemaster&gclid=CNKrj9OinpACFRdyYAodiCaAsQ

NM_Shooter · December 10, 2007, 01:07:53 PM

Quote from: tanya on December 10, 2007, 12:30:20 PM
You can put a little porch off of the window/door and definately use a sprinkler system even if it is just a hose and a sprinkler you can turn on at the faucet I don't know why every house doesn't have some sort of sprinkler system and every upstairs room, loft or whatever should have outside access and you can open the windows in the summer to cool the place down.

My only source of pressurized water is a 4 gallon per minute RV pump, fed by a 40 gallon water tank. Those pumps barely put out enough water to run a sink, let alone a fire supression system. If my extinguishers don't put the fire out with a 10 second burst, I am scrambling out of there. If 4 extinguishers don't get it under control, 4gpm of water is going to be of no use. I don't have a way to do a cistern.

The biggest danger is inhalation, which is the worst up in the lofts. Smoke detectors are cheap, So I'll have several. I think that the best practice for this is fast egress, and good insurance.

MountainDon · December 10, 2007, 11:01:50 PM

I believe that given the remote mountainous forested site there are two types of fire to be concerned about. A fire that starts within the structure and the threat of wildfire from the surrounding forest. NM_Shooter/Frank, if the forest in your location is like mine it has too high a concentration of fallen trees, branches, needles, etc. Myself, I feel the threat from outside the cabin is greater than that from within the structure.

We spent most of our time this summer/fall clearing out all the crap on a good size chunk of the property. There's still a long ways to go, but the area around and close to our building area is quite clean. It's not only safer now, but looks better.

I do not have a high volume supply of running water either. At present I have a couple of 2A10BC and one 4A80BC chemical extinguishers up there. As well I have four 2.5 gallon pressurized water extinguishers I bought at auction for pretty good pricing. The problem with the water type is they freeze in winter.