200 s/f no permit questions.. how to double or triple your square footage?

[Donnyblake]

 Hello guys,
1st time poster.  I've been reading this site for some time and decided to sign up and ask a few questions.  First let me say that I am completely impressed by the DIYourselfers here who have accomplished unbelievable things. My hats off to you. Dreaming is simple, Making plans and taking steps to fulfill those dreams is a huge step,but actually following through completely and building your dream is something only a very few people ever accomplish.  Even the creation of this site is an accomplishment in and of itself.  It's a selfless act to create something in order to help others.

I believe we are here to "DO THINGS" That's what living is and I'm hoping to eventually follow the path that all of you have paved and I thank you for it.

Now on to the questions.

  I am aware, thanks to this site, that in many parts of the country you do not need a building permit for structures under a certain square footage.  I have not been able to find any statute or code addressing this in Pa. However, Assuming such a statute or code exists and for the sake of this discussion let's pretend you can build a structure no more than 200 S/F without the need for a building permit.. What do you guys and girls think are the chances or "getting away" with the following,

  I am under the impression ,after talking with a number of local realtors here in Pa, that a basement, either finished or not finished, is NOT included in the square footage. It could be listed as "bonus" space but not in the total s/f. In addition, An attic is also NOT included in the total S/f.

So my question is this.
  Considering the above information, I should be able to build a 200 s/f dwelling along with a 200s/f ( minus furnace and steps etc) basement and have at least enough room in the attack ( with a steep rough pitch) to use it as a small bedroom, office etc.
This way I can get roughly 500 s/f of living space and still be within the regulations for a No permit structure.

Am I dreaming here? or am I on to something?

  Also, does anyone know what the height limit is for such a structure and what the definition of a "loft" is?  Could I build the structure with no attic and instead a ceiling high enough to accommodate a walk around loft?   Perhaps a 16 ft ceiling with a loft and a flat roof?

[glenn kangiser]

I think all of that is possible as long as the building department allows it- if you care.

I would check on what they allow to be sure - if possible without giving the plan away.

Many will not allow plumbing or electricity - I like extension cords and power strips with breakers if wiring is not allowed, and I care.

Don't forget that more than one building under the limit can usually be built too --

and to the forum.

[i wish we were up north]

I called our local zoning to find out if we would have to have a building permit for out 12X16 shed..  Hmm, I really should not have done that!

Of course, EVERYTHING is permitted in Wisconsin.  So our 192 sq ft shed had to have a permit.  $37, I could have lived with that - however, we had to sign an affidavit that we would not "live in, sleep in or camp in, on a permanent or occassional basis" and that the shed would be used ONLY for storage. 

Called for confirmation and used my stardard "ARE YOU KIDDIN' ME???"  Well, No, they weren't kidding AND proceeded to tell me that I should have bought a camper... nice.

We also had to send a floorplan of said shed and what the exterior would look like.  I put a deck on it and they said we CANNOT have a deck attached to the building because they consider that living space (I sigh).  So I told them I would leave it detached...  No, can't do that either - I can build a deck but it cannot be in the vicinity of the shed.

I'm still laughing because it is SO ridiculous.  If we'd done the shed and never said anything they wouldn't have known about it.  It is taking a toll on my sunny disposition.  We live 3 1/2 hours away, only go there once a month or so and it is becoming a huge pain in my neck.

So, what are we going to do?  We'll camp in it anyway - at least until we get caught.  We'll buy a cheap tent and pitch it 'just in case' so they wouldn't be able to prove anything! 

I don't wouldn't want you to get in trouble but don't get a permit if you can get away with it.  Chances are if you are remote they will not catch you.  If you get busted - pay the fine and deal with them then. 

That, is my 2 cents!

[Redoverfarm]

Well you could always classify it as a shop building.  Hey who is to say that those work benches are bunk bed platforms and everyonce in a while I like to drag my work outside to a platform for staining and finishing so an "outside work platform" might be in order.  And I even like a sink in my shop to wash off and clean paint brushes.  And what about a eye wash station in case of emergencies.  Who would complain that it it 6' off the floor.  And every shop I have had has a bathroom.  And yes you do need heat in shop so a wood stove would also be in order to burn the scraps produced. Oh the wiring I almost forgot. You can't run tools without proper wiring and recepticles.  As for the refrigerator I personally don't like to drink hot drinks when I am working with sawdust.

If you could get a copy and yes as in everything else so called "legal documents" there is always things either left out on purpose or accidently.   

[FrankInWI]

hey "i wish we were up north".  i live in milwaukee area and built a "garage/storage building" near clintonville.  what county you in?  could share some experiences.  drop me a line if you like.

krosspen@yahoo.com

[glenn kangiser]

All I can say is frikkin Nazi's.

[glenn kangiser]

Light reading - see if these links work -

http://teamlaw.org/land.htm

http://teamlawproductions.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3

http://teamlawproductions.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=3

http://www.constitution.org/

[i wish we were up north]

It's funny, I have called it a 'garden shed' from the beginning of time - but that isn't going to fly with the county I guess.  I tried the work platform - we garden quite a bit and are learning to propagate plants but they are still calling it "living space"!  We have to sneak around, unfortunately it is the first thing you see when driving in.  Is this what having an affair feels like??

In time it really will be a garden shed (oh, and spare bedroom) but in the meantime we'll camp in it.  Electricity goes in next week and water this fall.

It will also be used as storage when we buy building materials on sale as we're planning for a small house sometime next year.  They said that with our house we can pretty much do whatever we want if it is over 720 sq ft (there goes the 600 sq ft. plan)...   Oddly enough we do not need plumbing or electricity in the house  .  This is the strangest county I have ever seen!

They really are taking all of the fun out of it.   

Jean

[i wish we were up north]

FrankinWI - I am about an hour from you in Waushara County.  Sent you note.  Small world!

[TheWire]

Wish you were up North,

Can you see your 'garden shed' site from a public road or is it far enough in that the 'Nazis' would have to drive on your land to see your project?

[John Raabe]

I wonder if Henry David Thoreau went through this with his 10' x 15' cabin on Walden Pond.

or... if he had.... maybe he would have written something much more angry than his book Walden.

[Jackson Landers]

Donny,

I have 2 thoughts about that. First is that you should also be looking at town or county laws and regs - not just state laws.

Secondly, ignore what you hear from realtors regarding this matter. Real estate agents are concerned with a definition of square footage for purposes of fairly advertising a home. In many places there are either laws on the books or professional standards for real estate agents dictating that what they advertise as 'square footage' can only be finished living space. That is a whole separate issue from how zoning and building code addresses square footage.

Some real estate agents, despite being intelligent people generally, fail to understand that their concepts of things like the definition of square footage are often unique to their own little industry and that no other types of professionals share them.

You will not get away with the plan you've outlined if the local authorities notice it and decide to press the issue. The best you could hope for is subterfuge, rather than exploiting a loophole. Good luck.