A sobering analysis.

NM_Shooter · April 14, 2010, 07:23:39 AM

We've got to quit giving away free stuff.... we can not afford to support the dead weight.

http://musburger.blogspot.com/

glenn kangiser · April 14, 2010, 08:23:31 AM

The system is designed that way for the rich and corporations. Most pay no taxes. The laws of the IRS are set up for special interests and that is why there are so many of them.

If the lower and middle class find a way to use a few of their loopholes and pay no tax I don't see it as bad. They are the ones that the system wants to carry the load.

How about us having Criminal Congress re-write the laws so that the corporations taking our jobs overseas pay the tax and we all get a free ride?

The system is broken because of the criminals we pay to write the tax laws and their own special interests, so that they don't have to pay the taxes, participate in our miserable broke social security system as they continue to steal money from it, or be victims of Obamacare as we do.

They exempt themselves from their own thievery..... throw the bastards out and things could get better except the newbies will bebought corrupted before they write their first law.......

There are now no limits on bribes.........

April 14, 2010, 08:38:18 AM

IMHO the system is broke beyond repair. Too many criminals in charge to salvage even a piece of it. Forgot to add that......

pagan · April 14, 2010, 09:59:21 AM

What else should we expect?

NM_Shooter · April 14, 2010, 01:48:56 PM

How about a flat tax? Too bad no body has ever thought of that.

April 14, 2010, 01:55:20 PM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 14, 2010, 08:23:31 AM
The system is designed that way for the rich and corporations. Most pay no taxes.

I don't understand your reasoning behind that.....What do you mean by that statement? Who do you consider to be rich?

Are you talking about the mega-wealthy folks, or just the top 10% of those taxed?

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/whopaysmost.htm

pagan · April 14, 2010, 02:58:06 PM

They're still getting richer while everybody else gets poorer.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB119215822413557069.html

The top 1% income earners are 146,000 households and earn $1,500,000 per year or more. The top .01% had incomes over $5,500,000 and number 11,000 households. Now here's something to wrap your mind around, the 400 highest tax payers earned over $87,000,000.

Meanwhile 34.72% Americans earn $65,000 or less per year and the median income for America is $46,326 per year. Of the 110,000,000 households in America more than half earn $46,000 or less per year. One of the top 400 earners makes in about 4 hours what the average American earns in an entire year.

I'm not going to shed any tears over their tax burdens.

Pox Eclipse · April 14, 2010, 02:59:11 PM

Quote from: NM_Shooter on April 14, 2010, 01:48:56 PM

How about a flat tax? Too bad no body has ever thought of that.

Lots of people think about it, but when you tell them they have to give up their mortgage deduction, they stop thinking about it.

pagan · April 14, 2010, 03:04:27 PM

I was reading an article authored by some economists claiming the mortgage deduction is partly to blame for the housing bubble because it created an incentive for people to take out excessive mortgages to maximize their deduction.

April 14, 2010, 03:56:58 PM

I don't care what other folks earn... I am more interested in what they pay in taxes. If someone makes $50B a year, good for them, and God Bless America. I don't base my happiness out of my comparison to others.

The top 5% pay more than 50% of our entire country's burden. That's screwed up. That means that a whole lot of folks are enjoying benefits that they are not paying for.

Keep raising taxes on the high dollar folks, and they'll leave. Guess who gets taxed next?

I'll take a flat tax and give up my interest deduction. As long as everyone gets flat taxed the exact same way.....

eddiescabin · April 15, 2010, 04:13:49 AM

I'm with NM-Shooter, the top 1% supports all the lowlifes that went to school to eat their lunch. Only in the US does the populace look at corporations with disdain. In most countries, their corps. enjoy the full support of the govt. and people. If our elected officials would tax imports the same way other countries tax ours...if only the same folks would enforce immigration laws, throwing the law breakers and their anchor babies out of the country. Some of your perceptions about the taxes paid by corps and wealthy individuals are simply moronic.

from the above link:
According to the Office of Tax Analysis, the U.S. individual income tax is "highly progressive," with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.

•In 2002 the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.

•The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group's tax share has grown faster than their income share.

Let me tell you how it works. We opened a mid-size company the we incorporated. We employed +/- 50 people at union scale. We sold equipment ranging from $100k to $1-2 million. Our profit margin was between 11 to 17 percent. The day we opened the doors, the State of California went into business with us, but took ZERO risk yet demanded 9.75% of our sales as sales tax. This does not include the union which we paid huge sums to just so that we could employ their members. YOU may not own a business or make what some consider big money. But those of us that do resent the attitude towards those of us that provide a job for you to go to.
We sold the company and are now invested largely outside of the state/feds ability to tax us.
Enjoy those govt. entitlements you demand.

pagan · April 15, 2010, 07:22:07 AM

NM_Shooter,

Nor do I, but the reason the wealthiest people are making so much money is because of a business environment and governmental regulations favoring shipping good paying jobs with benefits oversees so corporations can maximize their profits and return greater dividends to their shareholders. Many corporations that outsource are making profits with American workers, it's just not enough money for their shareholders to stay happy with their investments. American jobs are vanishing so the wealthiest people in America can make even more money.

Historically the wealthy paid far more in taxes even just a few decades ago and they didn't run from the country then, so I see no reason to expect that now.

Eddie,

We all pay for the people who refuse to work and would rather suckle at the governmental teat. In most other countries CEOs don't earn millions of dollars per year. Other countries also have much higher taxes and better social welfare programs than America.

In 2007 the top 1% controlled 34.6% of all wealth, (everything a person owns minus debts) while the bottom 80% controlled 15%. Considering only financial wealth, (subtracting real estate) the top 1% held 42.7% of the total while the bottom 80% held only 7%. And they're getting richer, in the last 15 years the total wealth for the top 15% nearly doubled.

Of the $6,000,000,000,000 share of labor income for the year 2000, the top 5% earners took home 25% of the income while the top 1% took 10.9% of all labor income. So that means 146,000 households shared almost 11% of $6,000,000,000,000. When you look at capital markets the wealth disparity gets even worse.

The wealthiest are taking a disproportionate share of all wealth in America.

Personally I demand nothing of my government. Good luck with your "outside" investments, hope it all works out for you.

ScottA · April 15, 2010, 08:00:21 AM

What many people fail to realise is that Federal income taxes make up only a small part of the total tax picture. Even the so called deadbeats are paying taxes every time they buy something through sales taxes. Here in Ok we pay nearly 10% sales taxes. Add to this property taxes which are paid even by renters through higher rents. Add to this Taxes on fuel. Add to this Taxes on your car. Taxes on your tires. Taxes on your Taxes. Yes you even pay Tax on your Tax. I have to pay state tax based on my total income despite the fact the Federal Gov. is taxing the same dollars. That sales tax you paid was taxed before you had the money to pay it with. The list goes on and on. If you look at ALL taxes you pay in a year for many people the total is close to 55% of your total earnings. But that's not even the whole picture. Every tax a business pays is passed along to it's customers in the form of higher prices so there's more taxes you didn't know you paid. Add to all this licence fees. It never ends.

pagan · April 15, 2010, 08:18:35 AM

Scott,

They're again pushing a European style VAT tax.

April 15, 2010, 08:35:13 AM

Quote from: pagancelt on April 15, 2010, 07:22:07 AM

Nor do I, but the reason the wealthiest people are making so much money is because of a business environment and governmental regulations favoring shipping good paying jobs with benefits oversees so corporations can maximize their profits and return greater dividends to their shareholders. Many corporations that outsource are making profits with American workers, it's just not enough money for their shareholders to stay happy with their investments. American jobs are vanishing so the wealthiest people in America can make even more money.

If you have a dime in a 401k plan then your vested interest is in play as well. Corporations outsource to get away from ridiculous union labor, and local taxes. If they can find talented labor in a depressed or business friendly country, they are going to jump on it.

People are going to do what they can to make the best situation for themselves. It's human nature.... anyone who says otherwise is not being truthful. So why should rich people be held to a different standard? Rather than be upset with the rich for being successful, why don't we encourage them to invest locally, invent locally, fabricate locally, and employ locally?

That was the model that made America. We have to realize that we are much more closely coupled with a global economy. Whether we like it or not, this tight coupling brings a huge amount of competition for jobs. Basic economics comes into play... supply and demand.

If you are resentful towards the wealthy for being smart and successful, and attempt to tax them in a punitive fashion, don't be surprised if they pack up your job and give it to someone who is more appreciative.

dug · April 15, 2010, 09:41:10 AM

Was about to throw in my 2 cents but then saw this post which pretty much says it all.

QuoteThe system is designed that way for the rich and corporations. Most pay no taxes. The laws of the IRS are set up for special interests and that is why there are so many of them.

If the lower and middle class find a way to use a few of their loopholes and pay no tax I don't see it as bad. They are the ones that the system wants to carry the load.

How about us having Criminal Congress re-write the laws so that the corporations taking our jobs overseas pay the tax and we all get a free ride?

The system is broken because of the criminals we pay to write the tax laws and their own special interests, so that they don't have to pay the taxes, participate in our miserable broke social security system as they continue to steal money from it, or be victims of Obamacare as we do.

They exempt themselves from their own thievery..... throw the bastards out and things could get better except the newbies will bebought corrupted before they write their first law.......

There are now no limits on bribes.........

Large corporations literally write their own ticket. They play by different rules, and should pay by different rules. But won't.

Trickle down always makes me think of accepting upper caste waste as my water.

BTW, I do not resent the rich, just the system that allows them to exploit everybody's resources (air, water, dirt).

pagan · April 15, 2010, 10:53:15 AM

Most corporations pay no local or state taxes because they use their ability to hire large numbers of workers as leverage to get municipalities and states to give them special tax "incentives" to relocate manufacturing facilities.

IBM pays no taxes in any state where it has facilities. Vermont gave IBM $5 million for job retention and IBM promptly sent 150 jobs to Brazil. To add insult to injury, the Vermont employees were forced to train their Brazilian replacements or else they would not get their severance packages. Tufts snowshoes was sold to K2 and despite being profitable in Vermont K2 chose to shutter the factory and send all of the equipment to China to maximize its profits.

I have no problem with someone earning a decent living and even becoming rich. But the system is designed by them to benefit them. The wealthy have always played by a different set of rules and have used their extreme wealth to buy the government they feel they deserve. If they want to pack up and leave rather than pay taxes, fine GTFO.

NM_Shooter · April 15, 2010, 10:59:54 AM

So let's add this up. We have a big corporation that may be receiving tax relief from the state or local authorities. This company employs thousands or tens of thousands in a distributed fashion.

All those employees have jobs because of that corporation. They all pay taxes, spend their wages on things that are taxed, buy homes which are taxed, and are clustered around employment which in turn drives the rest of the economy. Other people build homes, sell groceries, maintain roads, support the additional infrastructure, and develop a community around their industrial base.

Providing tax incentives for corporations to thrive is a sound investment. The profit margins of most corporations is not extreme.

People who have the ability to successfully run large corporations are worth every penny of their huge salary.

If they do pack up and leave, you'll be digging aluminum cans out of the trash to go stand in the soup line.

eddiescabin · April 15, 2010, 10:40:19 PM

I agree with all of the responses since my last post...and the numbers must be far greater as wealthy families do not pass just dollars from generation to generation. The advantage is the tax assessment on real estate.

I would like to know Pagancelt's source for stating that "most corporations pay no taxes" that is completely incorrect, at least from my perspective from sitting on 2 corporate governing boards.
Some do receive incentives from local/state/fed tax authorities, but that is a pittance to the contributions these corp.'s provide to the economies, far beyond just the jobs they provide.

Again, the "I hate corporations" mantra only show an ignorance on how things work and get done. Many people today hold Halliburton in great contempt, only due to ignorance. Halliburton supplies fuel in the most inhospitable environments (among other things) aiding in protecting your and my ass. If you think Joe's fuel supply could do it, you also think your little league playing 10 year old is ready to face the NY Yankees pitching staff, guess what? He isn't! Same with oil companies, these are generally publically traded companies, why not invest in them? Oh, right they are evil...hmmmm, who here does not use fuel?

pagan · April 16, 2010, 07:10:28 AM

NM_Shooter,

You're forgetting the millions of jobs corporations have sent overseas to maximize profits and the relentlessness in which corporations drive down wages, benefits, and worker protections.

Is see you agree with CEOs of banks, who successfully brought their institutions to collapse, being paid millions of dollars for their good work. Are you also glad billions of your tax dollars went to bailing them out?

Eddie,

I'm not ignorant of how businesses operate and I'm not saying corporations are evil, what I am saying is they use their power to employ, or unemploy, many people to leverage municipalities and states to gain special tax breaks. Halliburton also got billions of dollars in no bid contracts.

Look, I can see where you're both coming from, and that's all fine and dandy. Go give a corporate CEO who earns in a few hours what you earn in an entire year a great big huge and tell him you love him for all his hard work managing a "successful" corporation. Then go up to your elected officials and tell them how wonderful they are for protecting your rights and interests. Write a few letters to Halliburton executives thanking them for protecting you from the "evil doers" in the Middle East. Keep up the fight, but don't expect everybody to buy into your "corporations are good mantra."

April 16, 2010, 08:31:12 AM

Quote from: pagancelt on April 16, 2010, 07:10:28 AM
NM_Shooter,

You're forgetting the millions of jobs corporations have sent overseas to maximize profits and the relentlessness in which corporations drive down wages, benefits, and worker protections.

Is see you agree with CEOs of banks, who successfully brought their institutions to collapse, being paid millions of dollars for their good work. Are you also glad billions of your tax dollars went to bailing them out?

I'm not forgetting anything. Did you notice my post talking about outsourcing? They are outsourcing because of punitive taxation, forced US labor costs, and unfriendly opinions toward corporations. They are going to go where the economic environment makes the best sense. Instead of punishing corporations, we need to encourage them to stay here.

Please read my posts more carefully and don't put words in my mouth. I'd like you to retract your comment that you "see" that I agree with fraudulent managers being paid millions of dollars. (Or point out where I stated this so that I can fix this mistake) Note how I worded that post. Note especially the underlined word. (That was why it was underlined). No. I am not glad my tax dollars went to bail anyone out. I believe in financial Darwinism and these corporations should have been allowed to completely fail. Especially the car companies.

Once again, my position is that anyone who can run a multi billion dollar company SUCCESSFULLY is worth a high salary and bonuses.

Aha.. there it is.... Halliburton. Your leftist roots are really showing now.

Are you aware that Halliburton received many no bid contracts because they have skill sets that no one else in the world has (in terms of ability to perform large scale in short time), and that the work had to be done right away?

OK... I'll go give a CEO a hug for you. I'll see if I can find a cute one in a skirt.

Elected officials? The same ones over taxing us and running corporations off? Nah. That's more your crowd.

So... once again, please indicate where I posted that I was in support of execs who ruined their companies still receiving mega-compensation.

pagan · April 16, 2010, 08:39:42 AM

Yup, I'm a leftist who worships at the feet of Che. Feel better now?

NM_Shooter · April 16, 2010, 09:08:20 AM

Nope. Still wondering where your comment referencing my support for crooked, incompetent execs came from.

Ndrmyr · April 16, 2010, 09:14:41 AM

Amen for financial darwinism, shooter! What truly frightens and concerns me are the liberals who somehow believe that governments operate on a higher moral plane than corporations and therefore nationalizing everything is the moral alternative.

eddiescabin · April 17, 2010, 01:15:22 AM

Again, I agree with NM_Shooter.

Your reply:
I'm not ignorant of how businesses operate and I'm not saying corporations are evil, what I am saying is they use their power to employ, or unemploy, many people to leverage municipalities and states to gain special tax breaks. Halliburton also got billions of dollars in no bid contracts.

Look, I can see where you're both coming from, and that's all fine and dandy. Go give a corporate CEO who earns in a few hours what you earn in an entire year a great big huge and tell him you love him for all his hard work managing a "successful" corporation. Then go up to your elected officials and tell them how wonderful they are for protecting your rights and interests. Write a few letters to Halliburton executives thanking them for protecting you from the "evil doers" in the Middle East. Keep up the fight, but don't expect everybody to buy into your "corporations are good mantra."

My Response:

Yes, corp's use their "power" to employ/unemploy...for tax breaks, but do you not think the govt agencies that make these deals do not audit those decisions, as in, if we give this tax break, how much will be added to GNP and income taxation on the people that are employed, not to mention the contribution to the economy of all those employees spending their paychecks. In literally every case the amount gained by the Govt. is greater than any tax break. If you have any evidence of kickbacks or some dark conspiracy I am sure that many agencies would be interested.

Halliburton got contracts not because they are the best at what they do, they are THE ONLY ONEs that do what they do.

From my 1st post here:

If our elected officials would tax imports the same way other countries tax ours...if only the same folks would enforce immigration laws, throwing the law breakers and their anchor babies out of the country.

*Pretty clear on my opinion of those tax hungry elected officials you think I am aligned with!

I do not expect you to buy into the "corporations are good" mantra. I'm not sure what you "buy into", but while you were crafting your irrational fears I was at a top university earning 6 degrees including 3 advanced in Economics, Business and Computer Science. Even being visually impared, I retired before my 40th birthday. 63 days and counting on my skis in Kirkwood this season! Yay!