Bad economy: Build 16x24 or 24x28?

[KBowe]

My husband and I are debating whether to build our "dream home" this summer - a 24x28 timber frame with loft and basement - or building a "temporary home" - 16x24 with a loft - which would eventually become the guest cabin on our 70 acres. The plan would be to live in the guest cabin for 5 years or so until we can save enough cash to build the "real" home. It would be nice to take advantage of the current low mortgage rates and just build the eventual house, but we would end up with more of a mortgage than wanted (affordable now, but with my husband and I both depending on federal funding in our positions, it's a little scary).

I, of course, am more concerned with the 16x24 and space and the possibility of never building that "dream home". We have two small children, so I'm not so concerned with space now, more down the road. I know people do it all the time, and perhaps we would fall in love with the 16x24 and never build the "dream home". I just need to find a good layout we can all be happy with (really, ME. My husband could live in anything). Anybody have any advice, guidance, floorplan ideas? Anything is greatly appreciated!

[John_M]

What about something in the middle....say a 20x24 that is bigger than what you need now..but allows you to build it with a lot of the nice features you would want in your permanent home??

This way you are living nicer than you would in the 16x24 and not taking on more debt?

Or what about plans for a home that could easily be added onto in the future if money is available??

[Don_P]

If he can live in anything you've answered the question, get all you can as fast as you can, cause this is it. I'd agree with a design that can be easily expanded.

[rick91351]

KBowe first off    from the Great State of Idaho......

I of course have no way of knowing how much you have $$$ to build with.  We were planing sort of the same thing.  It was an apartment over a garage.  We were going to live there while we built our retirement home up on our ranch.  Then turn it in to a guest apartment.  However when I started to pencil it out, I very quickly discovered this was going to become impossible to do both and not suffer a huge debt load.  Not something I was wanting to take on.  I would certainly NOT sink a lot of money into a Guest Home or a Temporary Home if I were you unless you have very deep pockets.

There are many options available if you need a guest home.  This might be from a park model trailer to a neighborhood bed and breakfast.  We found a cabin we can rent close to the ranch.  It is 2.5 miles away.  Close for up there and because we rent it once in a while for other people to stay at while visiting we can get it at very good rate.   

Another thing I would think of real hard is how much usage will the guest house or cabin get?  Then break that down further how much usage do you want it to get?  Do you want to forsake your privacy for a constant stream of people using your cabin to vacation?  What if Uncle Harry ends up there and you just can not get rid of him?  Or in my mind worse yet 'if you build it they will come' and they do not.  You have dumped $$$ into a facility that no one wants to use.

As far as floor plans; WOW that is a personal thing.  Yet I / we have asked the same question.  My buddy owns a lumber yard and has hundreds of sets of blue prints there that contractors have left with him to do take offs or make the list of building materials needed to build the house.  Contractors never seem to pick those back up.  In all those there should be the magic floor plan right?  Nope it is not there.  I have been though them all.  Sort of like Goldilocks and the Thee Bears.  This one is to small, this one is to large, this one who ever thought that up must have been on a bad trip.  Find what you like and stick with it.               

[MountainDon]

I've seen a few folks with guest cabins, in fact there are two right near our mtn property. In fact we were going to build one ourselves. I started drawing plans a couple years back. Then retought how much it might be used. I still have the partially completed paper plans, but we are not going to build it. I built a small barn instead; more useful, for us.

[KBowe]

Thanks for the comments thus far. I've been following builds here for a few years in anticipation of the day we build our "final" home. The reason for the set dimensions is due to the timber frame construction. But, if building the 16x24, we can always add on I suppose. Our intention building a guest cabin is for a couple of reasons: we would like at some point to rent it like a B&B and also, there's a good chance one (or both) of our mothers will require our care in the future and the cabin would be their home.

I do believe we can afford building the bigger house. We would have to make some decisions on whether we would want to build a basement or not. I know there are advantages and disadvantages to them. No matter which size we build, we are doing timber frame construction and using SIPs for both the walls and roof. The SIPs bring our initial cost way up, but the cost savings in the long-term is worth it. Adding in the basement would be roughly another $15,000 (unfinished).

I've had  my heart set on a basement but I could probably live without it. Big reasons for including it would be food storage (we do a lot of canning & food processing), brewing beer, and then a bedroom down the road when our son and daughter no longer want to share a room. And of course just the additional space. I'm sure there are ways around that too - like building the outbuilding with living space when we have cash down the road. You can't really add a basement once the house is up, so we'd want to be sure we were okay with that route before building. MountainDon, we also would get a lot of use from a barn, so doing a small living space with the barn might be a good option for us down the road.

I guess I could ask if anyone has used SIPs and been unhappy with them. They are actually our biggest cost. They do seem like the best option in the long-term, and we will be at this house until the end of time.  We bought a sawmill, and my husband will be cutting all the timbers from our property himself. A majority of the work will be done ourselves. We do need to hire someone to bring in a crane to raise the timber frame and he would also install the SIPs.

The sawmill should be here tomorrow. My husband is pretty excited. We opted for a Norwood ML26. It should get the job done! We're planning to start on the timbers ASAP.

I feel like I'm talking in circles.    It's just nice to "chat" with some other folks about some options. Most of our family thinks we are insane if we go with the smaller house option. Heck, they think the 24x28 is small! I, personally, am looking forward to having less to clean and less space to store a bunch of junk we don't need!

[C.Oden]

KBowe. hear you loud and clear on they think you nuts contemplating something so "small". lol
I have been in process of downsizing now for darn near a year. At first I just shifted from main level to basement what I felt could go. It sat there. I just couldn't do it. Then I started to see I wasn't using it and OMG - I actually did not need it.....hello 
That was round 1 and 2. 3ed itemsus300 s/f full of mostly unused items. INSANE

The jouney continues yet today ..... I have maybe 240 s/f full to almost the ceilings awaiting the next call asking for donations.
Truthfully - the whole things makes me sick! Not that I am giving things away but rather I even felt the need to buy in the first place looking back.
I imagine I have donated $20K in items and more to go yet.
Unreal what we, at some time or point in our life, felt we had to have or needed. What was I thinking
Good luck on the journey.

[Don_P]

Congrats on the mill, he's sounding like more of a keeper  A friend made a decent living and built his house with his Norwood. Start on some junk, take on your good trees for timber after a little bit of experience. Learn to read the trees, making boards doen't mean you're making lumber yet. We politely call some of my efforts "dimensional firewood  "

I've used SIPs once and was less than impressed. For the money I would rather frame and foam the walls. They were inconsistent in blown thickness, I had to modify several oopses and found voids in their fill although it was 3rd party stamped... and when you go to attach anything, there is no framing you're trying to attach to 1/2" osb. The installation crew, well... hoodlums. That is a case by case thing and I've heard bad things about that company since. I've heard good things about others. We all kind of sign on to the path we choose, I did 3 back to back sprayfoam jobs after that and thought they made better buildings if a little less energy efficient. If the sheathing rots on a frame wall the frame is still there, in a sip the structure is gone when the skin fails.

Got pics of the frame?

[flyingvan]

I think build the size you need, but no bigger.  The bigger you make the place the cheaper it is per square foot (usually, until you get crazy big)  If you pick up Sarah Susanka's 'Not So Big House' books at the library she's got great space saving approaches

[rick91351]

I have watched several videos of sips being erected.  With that said they looked so easy and almost fun.  Yet I must realize they were propaganda, shot for that purpose.  I think they were produced by a plant here in Idaho that has shipped all over the US and Canada from what I understand.  The one house I know of that was built by sips for sure.  It took forever to finish. To be fair I do not know if it was the sips or    But after it was erected it was like a year before occupancy. 

I agree with C.Oden some people can live with less, enjoy and live that way efficiently and effortlessly.  Myself and my wife however choose not to though we are right now.  Us two, plus two working herding ranch dogs and Pomeranian and a cat are living in a 30 ft fifthwheel trailer with a slide-out.  We have been living that way since we sold the house last fall.  Plus traveled that way for two months this winter down south plus did Disneyland.  WOW    Now we are back north starting to get ourselves ready to build our retirement dream home.  The fifthwheel will continue to be our home through this build while we give birth to a 2300 sq ft Arts and Crafts / Carftsman style all on one level dream home.   

That said do I think you that choose to live small are weird or a few french fries short of a full order ?  Nope not at all.  If I did I sure would not be hanging around this web site and forum.  I also try and not be judgmental of those that live in those MacMansion as well.  I urge everyone however to find what they like get it on paper and stick with it.  I so agree with flyingvan about Sarah Susanka's "Not So Big House" books.  She is a master of space. 

If you decide to do the small house then the larger can you / will they let you put both on the same septic?  If you decide to do the B and B will you be able to do so without a hassle with neighbors and planing and zoning?  Remember neighbors change.  The ones that are there now are great however tomorrow.........     


       

[C.Oden]

Well expressed Rick
I am truly not certain what size we will be (re)building. Our thoughts and visions have changed for sure and our place today at roughly 3700 s/f is just waaay to much for needs at this stage of our life. The main 2 floor are roughly 3200sf and a bump out added that extra 500sf. Right now I truly believe, nope, I KNOW, we could live happily in that 24' x 28' TF that KBowe is contemplating since with a basement and partial loft it be fine __ for us anyway.
That 16' x 24' would be a nice beginning and then onto the TF I imagine we'd go.
Different stages and times in life bring on the different wants - needs - desires for us all. I confess we been small to medium to huge to medium today and the one I most loved , size wise, was the small. It was not pretty but open and laid out perfect. Needs and wants changes....now they are again.
Sorry - I did not mean to hijack this thread. I cannot see why starting small and avoiding debt and then going bigger if it is desired then is ever a mistake. Starting to big ..... with housing and economy as it is unless one is really safe and comfortable in a job .... somewhat spokes me.
That stated - my ideas are just my own and none of us are alike.   

[KBowe]

Don_P, not sure if I have digital copies of the timber frame plan. Will post pictures of things as they come along. My husband has done most of the research on the SIPs, so I can't formulate much of an opinion. These would be built by a company here in Minnesota.

rick9151, I'm not sure on the requirements for septic systems; we are still getting details on that. We had hoped to do a composting toilet with a grey water system, but if we end up getting a mortgage, we are required to have a septic system. If we do the guest cabin and then our bigger house later, I'd have to find out if they could tie into the same system or not.

C.Oden (and others), good points about starting small. We can always add on when we can afford it with CASH rather than being stuck in debt or worse, losing the home because we can't make payments. The timber frame plan we have is for the 24x28 but it can easily be built as the 16x24 and add on later.

I feel like I may be getting persuaded to start small. My husband will be happy. If we go small first, we'd have money available to build a small outbuilding also. That could help remedy some of the storage problem woes (for me). Although, we are really trying to get rid of all unnecessary junk when we move!

[C.Oden]

so a fellow dweller from Minny eh!!!
Don't let us sell you on anything ...... follow your heart and true wants.

I think all I was trying to say is we can get by smaller and the costs are sweeter on the system.

Where abouts are you looking to build? 
I'm headed up to Grand Rapids in morning to put in an offer on a parcel north of there about 26 miles.
Whether they will bite on it I can only pray!

[Huge29]

You mentioned taking advantage of the low interest rates; keep in mind that that won't do you any good with the second building/housing.  Assuming that your 70 acres is all one parcel, the first loan would almost for sure have to be refinanced when you go to build the second one.  If you have two parcels and you can build one on one and the second on the other it would be a non issue, but as most counties require 40 acres for a permit you will most likely have to refinance the first loan into a second new loan including the first loan.  Good luck! 

[KBowe]

C.Oden, hope things went well for you this weekend. We're north of Bemidji.

After some cost calculations, discussions with family and my husband, and some other considerations, we have decided to go ahead with the 16x24 build for now. It will be built with the ability to easily add on if we so desire. Perhaps down the road we will decide to build the 24x28 or maybe we'll be satisfied with the 16x24 and decide to spend our money on other things! It just makes the most sense and puts us in a much better financial situation.

Thanks for comments and suggestions. We still have some decisions to make, but at least we can move forward with planning the layout and starting to look for deals on building materials! 

Unfortunately, due to storms in the midwest, the sawmill was delayed and just arrived. Guess that's what will be consuming my husband's time the next day or two (and then some!). I'll post pictures and such when we get rolling on the build.

[OlJarhead]

My 2c

I like the idea of the 16x24 as a starter if it's planned out well   it's small but can be made into something larger.

It could also be done as a 16x28 to give just that little bit of extra space....something to consider -- so this is what I'm thinking (and in part what I'm planning on a smaller scale for guest cabins).

1.  Build the 16x24 (14x24 is great but you'll want the extra 2 feet) but plan where you will add a 12x18 later (ala Victorian) and build a 10x12 off one side for a bath/utility room (you could also put a back door out of it if you made the bath 8x10 and saved the last 4 feet for a hall (with coat hangers and shelves) and back door.  For the 12x18 addition just install the door (temp exterior) in place of where you'd want your master bedroom to be.
2.  Make the loft at least 3/4th of the upper area (like in my build) to give lots of space for the kids.
3.  Once completed and you're moved in begin the 12x18 addition when time and funds allow -- this will give you a nice master bedroom.

Then when you're ready to take the plunge on a bigger place you will have an awesome guest house   Or Mother-In-Law cabin etc.

On interest rates:  I really don't see a big rise in them unless all hell breaks loose (which it would if rates rose much)...on one hand the FED is keeping rates down right?  On the other if rates go up the US won't be able to afford to pay interest on it's TRILLIONS in debt so we'll not be thinking of Mortgages anyway   Just my sense.

[OlJarhead]

I'd be happy to answer any you have

[flyingvan]

We went with the smallest high efficiency airtight fireplace we could find, a BisNova http://www.securitychimneys.com/pages/fireplace/high_BisNova.asp 
As with every wood heat system, it has its quirks (when you put a freash log in, you open the damper all the way until it gets going then choke it back down or else the window gets smoke stained) but it'll burn that log for hours.  It's easy to set it low so you don't overheat your small space. 
Then there's a gravity wall furnace right around the corner (35,000 btu, $429.00 from Home Depot).  No electricity required, remote thermostat.  We got the optional blower but it works with or without so even with a power failure it works.   The 25K model is cheaper, about $400.  Mount it on an interior wall if you can for best drafting and heat distribution.

   We love the combination.  Wood is free for the taking and plentiful but someitmes you just want to take the edge off.  We also ran a duct from the highest point of the ceiling and ran it down to a low far corner, all hidden, with a in line duct fan in place, and there's a 110v thermoswitch that can kick on to circulate the air regardless from where the heat's coming from (we haven't cut in the intake or outflow registers yet and not sure we ever will, but if we decide the heat needs better distributing it'll be an easy project now)