Easiest Build.. Log Kit vs. Panelized or Stick?

[AdironDoc]

My father and I got to talking about building something together in upstate New York. As time went on, he became convinced that I need something "just a bit bigger..and bigger..and..". Well, fact is, I'm not a builder by trade and have only a few weeks over a summer to devote. He, the builder, is long since retired. Looking at the ads and websites, they look deceptively easy to build. I'm sure there's way more elbow grease than they let on, but it made me wonder about the relative ease of the log  kits, versus the panelized home kits. I'm thinking on the order of 20 x 30 and a 12/12 roof for a loft. Builders I've asked want roughly 30K for a roughed in 24 x 36, but where's the fun in that? Moreover the kits go for much less and include more. We've stick-built simple additions together in the past but never a kit. Lastly, the cabin site is off the grid down a dirt road not accessible by a tractor trailer.

Has anyone put up a panelized cabin? My understanding is that if you can lift a 4ft wide finished wall segment, you can essentially do the whole cabin, piece by piece. The log kits also appear easy, at least on the youtube ads. Any wisdom on value vs. ease would be appreciated..  Too many factors has my head spinning. Thanks! 

[cabinfever]

I did a lot of research on kits before I started my own 16 x 28 project. No matter how you sliced it, they were at least 1/3 more expensive than stick framing, and often more. I can't tell you if they go up faster, but they just didn't make sense on my budget even if they do.

[MountainDon]

I don't think there's any question about a kit of any type costing more money. I came to the same conclusion.

As for build time I don't know. In theory a well designed kit should go together rapidly. In real life, using a builder who has to read and follow instructions... well that gets into personal territory that I know nothing about. Somehow I don't think it goes as smoothly as the videos illustrate, but I could be too cynical. 

I/we were very fortunate having an entire summer to devote to nothing other than building. That was superb. But I know not something everyone has available to them. I 'built' our cabin in my mind and on paper drawings dozens of times before picking up a stick. I know that allowed me to avoid a few pitfalls.

G/L

[Don_P]

I've done about 50 log home packages. They are easy to slap together but are generally more involved than stick frame to do well. An understanding of wood, moisture, shrinkage and settlement would be a good place to start. It is an opportunity to buy cool tools. I've only been involved with one panellized house.

[davidj]

I'm a complete novice house builder (except for the shed and garage, which I built first) and, in general, I didn't find it particularly tough to do stick built.  If you skip cathedral ceilings and any hip roofs, do 8' walls and use factory-built trusses, you get to skip a lot of the hard and/or expensive bits.  I know this because I did cathedral ceiling, 2x12 rafters, 9' walls, balloon-framed front wall and a hip porch - those "extras" account for about 75% of the work and 90% of the thinking (plus a fair bit more money)!  If I ever do this again, someone truss company's computer is gonna be calculating all the fussy bits in the roof!

I've not used a kit, but a pre-cut kit seems like it would be problematic in its own way.  If any of my studs were particularly warped, I cut them in half and used them as cripples.  That's not an option if everything is pre-cut!

[AdironDoc]

Thanks for the input, guys. I agree, stick framing certainly seems to be the cheapest way to go, albeit with plenty of sizing, cutting, and time for siding, and siding again.  I'm thinking a log kit would be a fun change from what I've owned in the past. Would love putting something together where the pieces are precut and get knocked into place with nothing more than a mallet. No putting up siding, inside or out..ah the beauty of it    Despite higher price on panelized kits, like www.panelconcepts.com, the windows, doors, and finishing are all complete and even installed in the panels. Seems to be turnkey after assembling.

Don, since you've done so many log kits, can I ask, are two able bodied guys enough to do a 20x40 kit? We'd have available maybe 6 weekends, and a full week before winter.

Doc

[Don_P]

Physically, sure, my wife and I were the crew for the vast majority of those. I did much of the work on several solo. I only did a few precuts, we found that out in the elements we seemed to be more accurate than the kids in most shops. I can think of one that was just about flawless. The thing I learned to look for first is a supplier of the driest logs I could find. The logs will always end up drying and a timber can do quite a bit of shrinking, checking and moving between felling and drying. I decided that it would be better to have that movement over with as much as possible before using it than after assembly. With a random length log kit I could then sort through the stack and put a heavily checked log behind the cabinets or cut a bowed one into several shorter pieces beside windows or doors. The better precut folks take those pains. I did work for one company that graded their logs by simply cutting out the defects and sending short pieces, a 24 foot run could have as many a 5 "chunks". A case of meeting the letter without scratching the intent.

I suspect your timeframe is optimistic but it might get you dried in. Second row could take me a weekend just chopping in recepticles, switch row is another big slowdown. We would normally lay out walls, windows and doors on the floor and then electrical. We would then walk the floor with the homeowner and electrician to verify and get sample boxes of each type from the sparky. I'd have a plan B to get the roof on before winter if you get behind. If you can hire an experienced hand for the dry in it would help. I also found 24 foot widths to be much more useable than narrower buildings.

Logs will last much longer if you provide deep overhangs and porches to protect them from the elements, these also take time.

[Squirl]

Are codes an issue?  I am not building in the Adirondacks, but I am building slightly south in the leather stocking region.  I heard codes can be a bear up within the blue line region.  That was another issue I found with kits.  Most did not meet the energy code requirements for upstate NY (R21 walls, R30 floor, R49 roof) and the cost and time of retrofitting them would be a waste.   Also I am the type that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I would rather have a well insulated building in the far north at high altitudes.  Maybe an SIP kit would work, but you probably need enough access for a small crane and trailer.

[325ABN]

For a log home kit I recomend you check out Coventry Log Homes out of Woodville, NH. This is the company I will be buying the kit from when that time comes. I have been to thier mill as was quite inpressed.

[AdironDoc]

Wow, Don, that's great info. A few of the kit producers encourage a factory visit to inspect your cabin before they disassemble it for shipping. I'll have an eye on the dryness as you mentioned. As for electric, I'm off-grid and had expected to run wiremold, channels or raceways as need be.

Squirl, I haven't checked the codes yet, but the broker/builder that sold me my parcels had said the town will want to know if it's a seasonal, or year rounder. For me, it's 3 season as the 2 miles of dirt road through the hills will be impassable. He noted that Herkimer County, NY had few restrictions compared with your region to the west, and far fewer than Catskills region. I suspect, though, I will not be able to fit any mini-hydro generators on my river as they are generally strict with that throughout the state. Hope your build is going well.

Will look at Coventry when I get the chance..    I'm hard at work here today. Remember the definition of economics? the study of "how to satisfy unlimited wants with limited means, and you know what that "means".. 

[MountainDon]

My thoughts on the wiring is that the final product is more satisfying, more pleasing visually, and probably costs less if theelectrical needs are thought out as best as possible beforehand and installed in a concealed manner. I missed a couple potential/probable uses when designing the electrical for our cabin. Adding them later cost more (surface mount equipment), was more work, and is not as aesthetically pleasing.


A thought that just popped into my head... even if you are off grid you may have to meet certain electrical code requirements as to the number of receptacles, ceiling lights in kitchens, etc. I installed some receptacles I thought would likely never be used, but would be required under NEC spacing terms. Guess what? We're using a couple of them.

Check on what restrictions you might need to build.

[AdironDoc]

Thanks, Don, that's sober advice. I'd hate to get going only to find out that it's all wrong. Fortunately, dad's an electrical contractor, so could be we'll add the wiring from the get-go. I'll call the town's building department and ask to speak with the inspector about various requirements. I'm sure he'll want to review the plans prior to signing any permits anyway. My fear is too much involvement by the local department will have them breathing down my back for any small thing I do in the future. Hopefully, I can pay the fees, get approved, and be done with it. My last town fined me $3K when the bark was damaged on a young maple on a wooded 2 acres by a careless backhoe operator. They later declared that my front lawn, being on a slope, was technically groundcover, and could not be cut without permit. Could be why I'm cynical these days..    Thanks again for the advice.

[firefox]

In reference to SIPs, if you get the metal clad sips, they are
capable of being handled by two strong people. You don't need a crane. Still a bit of a pain to get to a remote site, but definitely doable. If it is a simple plan it can be dried in in about a week.
You will probably want to put on a regular steel roof and siding, but
you will have more than a year to do so, since it is inherently sealed from the get go. You will need to get them from down south on the east coast.
I just wish they had a factory on the west coast.
Bruce

[NM_Shooter]

Doc,

I think that for two guys with the timeframe you have, the stick built is possibly do-able, assuming good weather and no mistakes.  I don't believe you could get a log cabin dried in within that timeframe. 

Do you have to contend with significant snow?

Plan on roofing to take up an entire weekend. 

[AdironDoc]

I'm slowly resigning myself to the idea of beginning my framing in the early spring. The order time along with delivery ends up putting me into fall before I even get going. I spoke to panel concepts about their panelized three season cabins and was told that although the kits are very simple, each panel does weigh in at 180lbs plus. That's gonna be a stretch for my dear old dad and I.

I later spoke to Calvin, owner of Deer Run Cabins, and came away with some great ideas. His kits are a hybrid that incorporate a simple Amish post and beam construction with tongue in groove siding and D-log exterior. Nothing heavy. Very simple and well suited to a team of two. His 18 x 36 kit in particular fits on a smaller truck that can negotiate the winding 2 mile dirt road to the homesite, needs no cutting as it's precut and numbered, and is often put up by  husband/wife teams. The interior is exposed post and beams, with the exterior pine board siding visible. A layer of high-R insulated panel separates the pine and exterior half-log siding. Light, weathertight, and seemingly very doable for a few of us. Kit came with everything down to nails, drill bits, and exterior stain. Price was great. I was talked out of a 12/12 roof pitch due to difficulty working on a steel roof without harness or other setup for safety, and more importantly, that adding 24 inches of outer wall, with normal 8ft first floor walls result in more loft space than a 12/12 and an easier build.

Well, I've learned much here in the 2 short weeks, and having a blast in the process. Thanks to you all for your opinions and wisdom.

Doc