What would you have told Joe?

[muldoon]

Now that we have all had a little time to digest this week's event, I couldn't help but think what I would have told Joe Stack before he took off and did what he did.  There already is a thread with very valid responses about why what he did was wrong, and how some could understand how he may have snapped and did this.  But aside from that, I am curious about this on a somewhat deeper level. 

In reality, he gave no hints as to what was to transpire. What advice would you give other "Joe Stack" individuals who are feeling resonance with how he felt? 

If you were privy to what he was going to do, or not as was the case with this guy, or knew him as a friend, acquaintance or relative, what advise would you have given him as his depression and frustration increased?

See a doctor, go drink some beer and forget about it, or recommend non-violence or what? 

What if this was your son, father, uncle, husband or SO? I understand there are many who sympathize with Joe Stack's situation and are fed up but don't know what to do next.  I also know there are many who will demonize him, and to some extent understandably so.   If he was your neighbor, and you had no idea this was coming; but did hear his story and his depression - what would your words of wisdom have been? 

I have my own thoughts on this and will post them later, but am curious about what others think.  CP people always seem to have the best answers for life's troubles.

Thanks

[StinkerBell]

It's easy to look back and say if we only knew, but I do not think it is always that easy. I am not sure if I would believe a friend or family member who told me they wanted to crash a plane into a building housing the IRS. On a personal level I have over the years told my kids I was going to kill them if they continue to leave food in their bedroom, or I will kill them if they contiue not flushing the toilet.  I think I might struggle with the fact someone would want to do it.

I would try to find others that might be in a similar situation and survived. I think finding those who have gone before may offer advice and comfort. I am sure there are support groups out there who just hate the IRS.

It is to hard to figure out what i would do. There seems to be many layers to this guys frustration and not being able to understand a good portion of them I suspect I would fail at any attempt.

[glenn kangiser]

I would give him the name of a person to contact to help him get an education and give them as bad a time as they gave him, if he felt he was up to it.  At least it would be by their terms and non-violent.  

Here is an anonymouse browser link to a place that helped me learn about the laws how to deal with them.  

Yes - you may cause yourself more trouble than you want to deal with if you follow the information presented there, but he warns you of that in advance.  You may learn more than you want to know.  I have not been able to prove any of the information false.  I have had the IRS totally ignore my questions presented from this site and try to bully me into doing it their way.  They never did refute any of the information from this site.

I present this as education information only.  I benefited from it.  You on the other hand may find more trouble than you want to deal with.

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.tax-freedom.com/

Here is an anonymous browser add on for Firefox.  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/62579

Anonymouse.org 1.0

I would suggest using the anonymizer to browse the site.  The last time I was there it seems I was followed.  

You are free to learn about this, are you not?
 
The owner of this site is on a list or two.  I have talked to him personally and purchased his CD of affidavits.  Then the fun began....

Don't bother telling me how un-American this is.  If you don't like it just continue on as you are and do not bother to read this take on the laws.  IRS code includes thousands of pages of exceptions written specifically for the elite and corporations - loopholes to get out of paying- legal loopholes.  You deserve the same consideration.


NONE are more hopelessly ENSLAVED, as those who FALSELY BELIEVE that they are free... Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[peternap]

There's a big IF in your question Mulldoon.

As far as I can tell, he didn't speak to anyone about it.
I've found that most people that do talk about murder or suicide or both, are just talking. I'd have probably ignored him.

I've also found that people who are serious about it, are going to go through with it no matter what.
I've seen no indicaation he was a drunk or a drug user, both you can sit on until they come around.

I just don't see where I or anyone else could have helped the guy.

[RainDog]

And when you're done commiserating with and understanding poor Joe Stack, you might drop by and reiterate your position for this guy and his family:

http://www.kvue.com/news/Plane-Attack-Victims-son-speaks-84823732.html

[peternap]

And when you're done commiserating with and understanding poor Joe Stack, you might drop by and reiterate your position for this guy and his family:

http://www.kvue.com/news/Plane-Attack-Victims-son-speaks-84823732.html

No, I don't think I will Raindog.
I haven't defended JS and won't. He did something I consider wrong.
Ken Hunter says his father would have gladly helped Stack make the needed arrangements.

At the same time I'm not falling for that BS either. It's the same tune you hear from the family of a drug dealer shot during a drive by.
He was such a good man, how could this happen.

I would bet money any day, that there is not one person in that building that would gladly help anyone.
There just aren't any good guys at all in this fiasco.

[RainDog]

there is not one person in that building that would gladly help anyone.

<long pause>

Uh... okie dokie.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Without knowing them personally, I think it would be hard to say that there weren't any good guys.  I daresay there are good people who've worked for the IRS, and even among them probably quite a few who don't agree with what the IRS does.

[ScottA]

I think Bob Seger said it pretty well in the song "Feel like a number".

I take my card and I stand in line
To make a buck I work overtime
Dear Sir letters keep coming in the mail
I work my back till it's racked with pain
The boss can't even recall my name
I show up late and I'm docked
It never fails
I feel like just another
Spoke in a great big wheel
Like a tiny blade of grass
In a great big field
To workers I'm just another drone
To Ma Bell I'm just another phone
I'm just another statistic on a sheet
To teachers I'm just another child
To IRS I'm just another file
I'm just another consensus on the street
Gonna cruise out of this city
Head down to the sea
Gonna shout out at the ocean
Hey it's me
And I feel like a number
Feel like a number
Feel like a stranger
A stranger in this land
I feel like a number
I'm not a number
I'm not a number
Dammit I'm a man
I said I'm a man

[Squirl]

I do tax defense work.  Some of the people across the table that are in the IRS are nice normal people just wanting every one to pay his share.  Some are real jerks.  But it is just like all other things made up by people.  The problem is when you run into thinking of it as one monolithic organization and forget the people.  I have spent many a day in an IRS office with client's working out a solution.  Many times these were people that hadn't filed a return in 20 years and they were in for a voluntary disclosure and only had to pay the back taxes with no interest or penalties.  The thought of me, clients, or some of the fairer people I have met being killed because some guy got a bad deal in life is saddening.  Even the people that are not fair don't deserve to die for it.

I disagree that no one in the building would help.  Some help, some don't. They are every day people.  I would not compare a person that goes to work everyday as a pencil pusher, file clerk, secretary, janitor, or any other office job, the same as a violent criminal drug dealer.

[glenn kangiser]

I agree with Squirl.  Good and bad.  The lady Revenue Officer, while ruthless and absolutely guilty of being responsible for illegally getting someone to break into my mail box and open my mail and checks in it, also gave me the good advice at the end that has allowed me to deal with them successfully.

My education on how to deal with them was also from a contractor I bought a truck from who had knowledge similar to the above linked site and he constantly tried to teach me of it.  I originally thought he was off his rocker, but have since come to understand that he was correct.  He said no matter what, always talk to them.  He did limit the ways in which he held property so they could not attach it.  To him it was worth it.  Just the principal.  They never did haul him in.  He was the one who told me to do it without making massive public waves.

Unlike him - I file to get my wife's tax overpayment back.  Getting ready to file my 08's soon.  Working for myself with only me for a secretary is so inefficient.  There is just not enough of me to go around.  Dang... seems I forgot to file for an extension too, but I am getting to it.  Unfortunately I had a computer crash and am trying to recover the data as well as possible....   I have to contact them and get copies of the information they have so I don't miss anything.

[glenn kangiser]

Cool - we are popular.

I ran a trace on a guest reading this thread and guess what.  WE are official terr    ...or  ists for talking about this.

NameServer: NS1.WIRELESSDATASPCO.ORG
NameServer: NS.CDPDSPCO.ORG   

Their IP  166.137.11.229

A search on that IP brought up this:    Still under the illusion that this is a free country?

...... and I'm sure it will be of no surprise to you that this ip chain is associated with "The US Terrorist Surveillance Program". Should anyone doubt this information, simply Google the ip chain "166.128.0.0 - 166.255.255.255 ", or one can visit the URL: http://cryptome.org/ip-tla.htm for more information. Now you ask, what is the point of my email? First, I would like to know from "someone", why taxpayers are paying people to watch a site of Gay Cartoons? Second, to say that FBI agents, and other federal investigators have too much power already that is being abused! They have shown that they can't be trusted with the powers that they already possess, let alone to have even more authority to do what ever they like. They are asking for more control, as they have already over stepped the bounds in their command..... and worry that Congress, & the country will find out what they have done and prosecute them. America needs a respite from being terrorized by our own government! The Republican mantra of "No Big Government, or No New Laws".... does not apply if it's a "Republican Big Government, and Republican New Laws. I kindly ask that you think long, & hard before voting to give away any more of our rights.

[RainDog]

http://www.wdspco.org/

[glenn kangiser]

Correct RainDog. 

They do other things too, but that address is specifically in the terrorist watch program.  There is no doubt about the address.  As admin I can trace where even guests are from.

Partial List of IP Blocks Used by US "Terrorist Surveillance Program"

The following partial list of IP blocks are routinely used by the US government entities (supported by private contractors) to gain access to, to monitor, and in some cases, to destroy IT networks. Such activity is related to the US "Terrorist Surveillance Program." Most of the registrants of the blocks listed below are not aware of these activities. Concerned network admins should examine traffic logs closely. A correlation of traffic from several of these IP blocks likely indicates that a network is under surveillance or has had access attempted by the US intelligence community and affiliated entities.

83.27.0.0 - 83.27.255.255

170.86.0.0 - 170.86.255.255

62.212.234.128 - 62.212.234.255

81.57.102.0 - 81.57.103.255

201.5.0.0 - 201.5.255.255

213.151.160.0 - 213.151.191.255

70.83.15.0 - 70.83.15.255

166.128.0.0 - 166.255.255.255

60.64.0.0 - 60.159.255.255

142.191.0.0 - 142.191.255.255

83.65.121.32 - 83.65.121.39

12.108.2.0 - 12.108.3.255

65.128.0.0 - 65.159.255.255

24.158.208.0 - 24.158.223.255

86.97.64.0 - 86.97.95.255

201.239.128.0 - 201.239.255.255

68.36.0.0 - 68.36.255.255

70.44.0.0 - 70.44.255.255

64.231.200.0 - 64.231.203.255

189.128.0.0 - 189.255.255.255

216.155.192.0 - 216.155.207.255

121.6.0.0 - 121.7.255.255

71.96.0.0 - 71.127.255.255

190.213.196.0 - 190.213.196.255

80.72.230.0 - 80.72.230.255

58.29.0.0 - 58.29.255.255

121.128.0.0 - 121.191.255.255

88.191.3.0 - 88.191.248.255

58.72.0.0 - 58.79.255.255

70.16.0.0 - 70.23.255.255

200.57.192.0 - 200.57.255.255

201.5.0.0 - 201.5.255.255

124.168.0.0 - 124.168.255.255

211.200.0.0 - 211.205.255.255

78.252.0.0 - 78.252.255.255

59.0.0.0 - 59.31.255.255

72.64.0.0 - 72.95.255.255

211.200.0.0 - 211.205.255.255

145.53.0.0 - 145.53.255.255

71.200.0.0 - 71.200.127.255

60.206.0.0 - 60.207.255.255

194.178.125.48 - 194.178.125.55

98.226.0.0 - 98.226.255.255

201.88.0.0 - 201.88.255.255

205.209.128.0 - 205.209.191.255

51.0.0.0 - 51.255.255.255

70.64.0.0 - 70.79.255.255

70.112.0.0 - 70.127.255.255

202.84.96.0 - 202.84.127.255

70.32.0.0 - 70.32.31.255

207.218.192.0 - 207.218.255.255

69.31.88.0 - 69.31.89.255

198.74.0.0 - 198.74.255.255

221.0.0.0 - 221.3.127.255

72.144.0.0 - 72.159.255.255

220.96.0.0 - 220.99.255.255

82.88.0.0 - 82.91.255.255

216.128.73.0 - 216.128.73.255

[RainDog]

This guy? His name is Walt, and he enjoys sailing and biking.

Okay, okay. I'll lay off. It's no skin off my nose

I'm sure I've navigated well beyond "mildly exasperating". I'll ease up on the gas a little.  

[glenn kangiser]

No problem... I have personal friends from the Feds and they are a lot closer than you think....

You never know which ones it may be .. even though I do...  

[MountainDon]

I don't think you can draw much of a conclusion from that one IP or the lengthy list of IP ranges. That one IP is a mobile IP from Cingular. Mobile IP's are frequently dynamic, reused by another person after the first logs off and another person comes along needing to connect to the internet.

A whois on several of those IP blocks brings the fact that several are assigned to Qwest and BellSouth. One to Corrections  Services Canada.  Shaw Communications, RoadRunner, and The Planet each held at least one block. A couple were Comcast Cable, Bell Canada and Charter Communications.  A huge block is assigned to AT&T. Another is assigned to FedEx.  If we believe that those blocks are somehow being used in the Terrorist Surveillance Program, all that shows is that at some point in time somebody used one of the IP's that are assigned to those commercial resellers for internet access. If a person with one of those IP's signed up here as a member does that make them suspicious?    

WDSPCo is an alliance of wireless service providers, Verizon, Cingular....  probably a good assortment of average joe customers with their IP's.

So even if some government program was using or targeting any number of IP's from those blocks, I'm not sure what that proves.

I chose a couple random IP ranges and ran a member search and found a couple reasonably active members and some non active members. I doubt that we can conclude any of them are of the subversive type or government agents.

I'm not saying that nobody is being monitored. I am saying that a list of IP address blocks proves nothing about any single IP within that block. Seeing one of those IP's here as a member or a guest does not prove the government is sniffing, nor does it mean that the guest or member is a terror suspect. I think it simply proves paranoia may be unnecessarily rampant.

[glenn kangiser]

It doesn't matter to me what they do and I am not labeling them as subversive. 

Just that out of millions of IP addresses in the US, one of our guests that is on the above list of IP's to watch, happened to be interested in the subject, as well as other times this subject has come up.

A possible big coincidence but not likely.

Nothing wrong here, but I like people to be aware they exist.

[pagan]

Seams like a lot of Joe's problems stemmed from attempting to fulfill the "American Dream," whatever the hell that really is today. Joe had a big house, fancy car, private plane, etc. and he was rich enough to really get pounded by the IRS, but not rich enough to take advantage of the tax loopholes specifically put in place for the wealthy "elite" and corporations. Perhaps he tried to get in on some of those loopholes, or was writing off questionable expenses. When I worked at a Jewish retirement community down in Florida one of the members, he was worth over $4 billion, told me the government could quadruple his taxes and he still wouldn't pay anymore income tax, he paid accountants and tax attorneys to take care of that. He said if you really want to hurt the rich, take away the loopholes.

I would have told Joe to move to a state with cheaper real estate, get a decent paying job and then live a simple life. Or he could've always "hurt" his back and go out on disability. It sure seems like a lot of people are getting injured lately and thus are unable to work. It's a moot point now anyway as Joe apparently hid his problems from everybody and figured out his own course of action.

[pagan]

It's because he crashed his plane into an IRS building and everybody HATES the IRS. Had he crashed his plane into an elementary school or day care center he'd be universally despised.

[glenn kangiser]

I wouldn't want to waste a perfectly good plane on the IRS. 

[pagan]

I wouldn't want to waste my life on the IRS. Yeah, I know, we're all working for the IRS in some form. But we can always figure out legal ways to beat them at their own game, rather than killing ourselves. What I mean is earn only the poverty level or less and then you pay no income tax.

[muldoon]

As far as I can tell, he didn't speak to anyone about it.
I've found that most people that do talk about murder or suicide or both, are just talking. I'd have probably ignored him.

I've also found that people who are serious about it, are going to go through with it no matter what.
I've seen no indicaation he was a drunk or a drug user, both you can sit on until they come around.

I just don't see where I or anyone else could have helped the guy.

Peter, him not speaking about it exactly the point.  He clearly went over the edge and snapped.  However, there are millions of others right now in this country that are on the line so to speak.  The anger in this country is very real.  While I do not think very many people are going to "snap" and fly planes, I do see further unrest and civil strife in the future. 

It might be the changes made by Citibank last week - https://online.citibank.com/JRS/popups/ao/Client_Manual_20091228.pdf
"Effective April 1, 2010, we reserve the right to require (7) days advance notice before permitting a withdrawal from all checking accounts. While we do not currently exercise this right and have not exercised it in the past, we are required by law to notify you of this change."
A bank with your checking account can simply just decide not to give you your cash in an demand account without 7 days notice, and this is coming? 

Or maybe this tidbit that the SEC allowed a rule change in regards to Money Market accounts last month. 
http://www.willkie.com/files/tbl_s29Publications%5CFileUpload5686%5C3047%5CSEC_Proposes_New_Money_Market_Fund_Rules.pdf
The SEC changed the rules to allow Money Market funds to disallow redemptions as they see fit without requiring any approval in advance.  Simply put, anytime they wish they can just lock the doors and decide not to give you your funds back and now thats legal. 

Or maybe the 401k chatter, http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=521423
Here is the straight talk from Newt Gingrich on the ongoing plans to convert 401ks into annuities.  as in the govmt seizes the funds now with a promise to pay you later with an annuity (social security style). 

-- is the looting of the american peoples money not going to seriously anger people?  Your talking about the outright theft of 401ks being discussed, the locking of the doors on money market accounts, and banks making preparations to simply stop paying at the teller.  This is being made LEGAL right now.  Do you not think that scenario is going to push people OVER THE EDGE? 

Or how about this one? http://www.businessinsider.com/aig-connection-might-bring-us-into-the-greek-bailout-2010-2
It seems that AIG might be on the hook for the Greece disaster, add that the Goldman trader appointed as new Greece head of debt.  http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/964dca2c-1d45-11df-b12e-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1

-- Or maybe the financial looting and pillaging is not enough to make people angry.  Once people realize where there money is going to and who it is enriching?  Do you think hungry unemployed people will just deal and get over it? 

--
What about on a more local level? 

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/woman-61-arrested-for-309285.html
61 year old woman arrested for standing on a sidewalk talking about a friends funeral.  When the police asked her to move she asked why and was promptly arrested and detained.  The police state makes people very angry; and here is why.


All of the above, all really boil down to the same thing.  When people stop thinking that the laws are upheld for all, that this country has two sets of laws, one for the rich and one for the poor, that's when things really fall apart.  The core basics of an orderly civilization requires law.  The very nature of freedom requires law.  You cannot have freedom without laws.  When the people begin to realize that the laws only apply to them, and that the police force are not there for them, but to protect the richest from us; thats when problems break out. 

Joe Stacks letter speaks of this; and it is exactly why it resonates with so many people.  I also see many many people who sympathisize with him on various levels because his spoke out about the different laws in this country.  I fear for my country and the shape and direction I see it going towards.  I think we will see many more of these types of events.  The context of my original question was -- what do you tell people who express no verbal outrage towards a target, but are clearly distraught and angry and frustrated?  People who feel they have nothing left to lose and direct their anger towards the enemy they perceive as the cause of it.  What words of wisdom do you tell someone who has given up on life? 

-- Here is my answer of what I would tell Joe

Joe, your a dumbass.  Your obviously a successful man, living in a mcmansion in Austin.  If you have troubles with the IRS, sell the damn plane, hire a lawyer to defend yourself or pay it outright.  Even though you may be successful, even if you feel you made it; you will never feed at that trough that lives without rules.  You have a family, a teenage daughter - your first responsibility is to them.  period.  End of story, get over yourself and focus on that.

Now, I understand your angry; but you have some options.  This is America, and to give up on America is rediculous.  Your father was not a goat herder in Afganistan, and that means you do not have to be a goat herder in Afganistan.  You were not born in Haitii; you have options here.  Your first option is to live within your means - do you really need a nice house in a posh neighborhood and a plane if your pissed about the salary drop you just took?  Maybe your frustrations are within your control.  You can opt to live simpler, you can opt to get involved. 

If Joe was at the point where he was willing to trade his life to kill people at the very lowest level of what he determined his enemy, if he thought his life was that meaningless - then he had nothing left to lose.  If I ever felt I had nothing left to lose, I would hope I would try to find what I had to give instead. 


There are alot of unhappy people today.  Things are progressing towards a situation where there will be many many more unhappy people.  Likely there will be more violence against the perceived enemies.  I see this getting worse before better. 

And as for IP addressing and the like above about government spoopage, you can pretty much bet that there is no such thing as being anonymous on the internet.  I stand by my words above and welcome any discussion or dialog about my concerns for this country from anyone.  Even if you are working for a 3 letter agency, surely you care about this country and see the same things everyone else sees. 

[pagan]

Muldoon,

Do you think his widow can be held financially liable for his actions?

[ScottA]

Nice post Muldoon. Have you considered that he may have only appeared successful? He may have been underwater on his house. The plane likely had a note on it. He may have been flat broke on paper. We may never know. He made the wrong choice no doubt but he must have felt cornered.