Copyright on plans

CREATIVE1 · February 09, 2008, 04:07:57 PM

Is it standard for a designer or draftsman (not an architect or engineer) to copyright your plans that you designed and not allow or charge for changes? Seems a bit bizarre to me.

MountainDon · February 09, 2008, 06:22:19 PM

Yes it is quite common for purchased plans to be copyrighted. Copyrights are also a prohibition against making photocopies. It's to prevent (or at least put a legal roadblock in place) illegal duplicating and selling copies. As well it protects their work from someone making slight alterations, calling it their own, and selling copies.

It may seem bizarre on the surface but you might think differently if it was happening to your work. This not only applies to home building plans, but to many other things that fall into the "intellectual property" category. Professional portraits for example fall into one of the most violated categories.

Example: Our preschool does pictures of the kids, including cap & gown for those going on to kindergarten. That is we have a pro come in, set up the equipment, bring props, etc over a 2 day period. The sitting is free with no obligation to purchase a thing. They even get a T-shirt with a picture of their kid on it for free at no cost, no obligation. They do a great job too, managing to coax smiles out of most of the recalcitrant. The company prints up a bunch of sheets with different sizes, 1 - 8x10, 2 - 5x7, 4 - 4x6 per sheet, etc. It's $10 a sheet that day, more later. I have heard one parent say to the other... "buy one sheet, I'll scan and print whatever you want". That is outright theft and it really does pi$$ me off. It's become commonplace with the advent of cheap scanners and color printers. But it is still theft.

February 09, 2008, 09:10:07 PM

This would be the Victoria with my very specific changes over a one and one-half year period SIMPLY BEING DRAWN UP WITH NO REVISIONS.
I have cross sections.; overlays, window and door schedules, lumber dimensions, everything. Still the same answer?

MountainDon · February 09, 2008, 09:18:34 PM

If we're talking John's plans most of the above does not apply. The purchaser of CountryPlans can modify to their heart's content and make as many copies as necessary to complete their building. Just don't resell the plans.

I can't say for certain about most other architect's, engineers or doodlers plans. Most, if not all, of those I've seen are very restricted to use and modification.

Does that help clarify things?

MountainDon · February 09, 2008, 09:48:40 PM

Re-reading.... do you mean you paid someone to make changes to John's plans and they placed a copyright on the result? Not sure but it would seem they would not have the right to copyright the result. Huh? More so, if the changes were actually your ideas, your intellectual property. Seems to me then all they did was make drawings to your instructions?

February 09, 2008, 10:22:56 PM

Quote from: MountainDon on February 09, 2008, 09:48:40 PM
Re-reading.... do you mean you paid someone to make changes to John's plans and they placed a copyright on the result? Not sure but it would seem they would not have the right to copyright the result. Huh? More so, if the changes were actually your ideas, your intellectual property. Seems to me then all they did was make drawings to your instructions?

What I did might have been wrong but I paid for 3 sets of plans from this place. I made a bunch of changes myself to them and whited out a lot of others including the copyright part and name of the company. I then made a copy of my master and used it to have nice copys made for the permit. I just figured I bought 3 sets needed 2 so I paid for the right to sumit them with my changes. I sure and the heck not going to pay someone to copy my drawing changes then charge me for them again! Mark

CREATIVE1 · February 09, 2008, 11:11:49 PM

Quote from: MountainDon on February 09, 2008, 09:48:40 PM
Re-reading.... do you mean you paid someone to make changes to John's plans and they placed a copyright on the result? Not sure but it would seem they would not have the right to copyright the result. Huh? More so, if the changes were actually your ideas, your intellectual property. Seems to me then all they did was make drawings to your instructions?

You've got it. They are just doing pretty drawings using the original plans, my overlays, and other changes marked in red ink. I don't think they should own these plans. They are John's baby raised to adolescence by me (in a manner of speaking).

CREATIVE1 · February 09, 2008, 11:13:41 PM

Quote from: Willy on February 09, 2008, 10:22:56 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on February 09, 2008, 09:48:40 PM
Re-reading.... do you mean you paid someone to make changes to John's plans and they placed a copyright on the result? Not sure but it would seem they would not have the right to copyright the result. Huh? More so, if the changes were actually your ideas, your intellectual property. Seems to me then all they did was make drawings to your instructions?

What I did might have been wrong but I paid for 3 sets of plans from this place. I made a bunch of changes myself to them and whited out a lot of others including the copyright part and name of the company. I then made a copy of my master and used it to have nice copys made for the permit. I just figured I bought 3 sets needed 2 so I paid for the right to sumit them with my changes. I sure and the heck not going to pay someone to copy my drawing changes then charge me for them again! Mark

And he also wanted to charge me if I made changes while we were building it. No right to modify!!!

fishing_guy · February 09, 2008, 11:46:29 PM

Easy,

Get another draftsman!

February 09, 2008, 11:52:49 PM

Yep, I'm working on it. I think he wanted to copyright and sell the plans.

glenn kangiser · February 09, 2008, 11:59:43 PM

He would be in violation of John's agreement with you when he sold you the plans although you have permission from John to do the changes. Sounds like the guy is a sleaze bag.

So he can violate the copyright but you can't eh?

MountainDon · February 10, 2008, 12:02:08 AM

I have Johns Little House plans; one set.

To quote from page 1... If you need to produce a full set of custom plans that are appropriate, edit them if needed and assemble them on your own 11 x 17 sheets.

As well I know he's stated here and there on the forum that it's ok to make changes and copies as you need for your own project. He asks that the plans not be resold. Johns more than fair. John also has templates, details available for download to make modifying easier. They are available to PlanHelp members

MountainDon · February 10, 2008, 12:04:51 AM

C1... too bad you're not in NM. I do nice drawings, if I do say so myself.

CREATIVE1 · February 10, 2008, 12:43:35 AM

I'm a Planhelp member too. John is truly generous with his knowledge.

Quote from: MountainDon on February 10, 2008, 12:02:08 AM
I have Johns Little House plans; one set.

To quote from page 1... If you need to produce a full set of custom plans that are appropriate, edit them if needed and assemble them on your own 11 x 17 sheets.

As well I know he's stated here and there on the forum that it's ok to make changes and copies as you need for your own project. He asks that the plans not be resold. Johns more than fair. John also has templates, details available for download to make modifying easier. They are available to PlanHelp members

CREATIVE1 · February 10, 2008, 10:17:43 AM

I haven't commissioned him yet. There were several stumbling blocks:

1. The copyright issue. He wouldn't budge.

2. His definition of "major revision." I tried to get a clarification, but he said a he would charge extra for a second revision that took more than 1 hour. I think he could abuse this and charge me much more than $1,800.00.

3. No time frame in the contract. Verbally he said one month, but he said in writing that he didn't want to specify a time period because we would both be bound by it and it could backfire on me. Oh, PLEASE!

4. He also said he would guarantee that the plans would pass permitting and make any necessary revisions at no charge, but THAT'S NOT IN THE CONTRACT.

There is no way I'd consider working with him unless I could change the contract. And since I have to work with him closely to finalize the plans for code considerations, etc., I am highly uncomfortable with our relationship at this point, and that's a major problem. I'm getting other quotes, but no one has gotten back with me yet.

CWhite · February 10, 2008, 10:38:58 AM

I don't know if this will help, but I used a builder and John's plans with changes for my house.
My builder had to draw up the plans with the changes on them for me so we could get our permit and communicate with the crews. He charged me $400.00 for the drawings including all of the copies we needed. I paid John his fee for the 1 1/2 story house as well.

There was no extra charge, and no contract, and no copyright issue at all.

I think my money was well spent.
Christina

MountainDon · February 10, 2008, 11:07:15 AM

Christina, that sounds okay... he just charged you for the time and bother to produce a working set for permits and work crew.

glenn kangiser · February 10, 2008, 11:37:06 AM

I also charge for time I spend to get plans corrected or accepted. Same as labor rate. Customer and I both benefit.

John_C · February 10, 2008, 11:55:22 AM

QuoteI am highly uncomfortable with our relationship at this point

IMHO Find someone else. You and he are likely to butt heads somewhere down the line.

CREATIVE1 · February 10, 2008, 01:15:42 PM

I'm looking at builder/designers who can provide the design and maybe some construction materials and even a panelized house. Since we're building it ourselves, some of the other options would cost more overall.

So, if the designer/draftsman wants to put John's plans on his website, I think he would be violating the original copyright. (A point I hadn't considered)

Copyright on plans

John_C

John_C