What Japan Thinks about Airport Body Scanners In U.S.

[NM_Shooter]

So I have a question then.

What level of risk are you willing to tolerate?

Are you arguing that we should do away with airport security?   I don't think that is what you are arguing... so why all the nastiness over the next step in technology? 

Hijackings are way down since metal detectors and luggage xray have been implemented.  Bad folks have stepped it up with ceramics, plastics, and chemicals.  Are you saying that we should not respond to their increased technological steps in smuggling of weapons onto planes?

As for my daughters, I would rather they step through a backscatter imager than have to deal with a psycho on a plane holding a ceramic knife to their throat. 

I also make my daughters wear motorcycle helmets, seatbelts, get their vaccinations, eat their broccoli, lock their car doors, carry car insurance,  and floss. 

I have yet to understand the concern about the backscatter use.  Scared of radiation?  Then you shouldn't be flying at all.  You probably should avoid concrete, granite counter tops, smoke detectors, wifi, monitors, cell phones, microwave ovens and Chinese toy imports. 

The backscatter machines are not perfect, but they do raise the level of weapon detection considerably.  Arguing against them because they are not fully effective is like arguing against antibiotics because there are some bugs that are immune.  It is a nonsensical argument. 

I still think the serious threat is in the carry on baggage, but that is getting better too. 

So... what's your beef with backscatter?

[ScottA]

Exactly how many planes in all history have been blown up by a passanger smuggling a bomb on to a plane? Not very many. I'll look it up later when I have time but I'm betting I can count them on my fingers. My beef with all this excess security is that it is degrading. Backscatter xray shows a nude image of the body. It may be dangerous to people who travel alot. Has it been tested for long term exposure?

When i first started flying I could carry a pocket knife onto a plane. Later I could put that same knife into a bowl when I walked through a metal detector and have it returned to me on the other side. Today you would be arrested and charged as a terrorist for trying the same thing that was totaly normal back then.

I used to always have my gerber folding knife in my pocket. I carried it for over 10 years. One day I had to go to court for my daughter. The security guards flipped out because I had this little 3" knife. I told them the same thing. I have carried this knife for years even onto planes and this was the first time anyone cared. Now it's suddenly an issue. They kept my knife. But I got it back when I thretened to file theft charges against the security officer. He returned it when I left.
As you can see it keeps getting more and more. Soon you will be scanned several times a day if you go out in public alot. How many times a day are you caught on camera? It will never end. If we don't stop this they will start putting cameras in private homes someday. That I will promise you.

[dug]

I have yet to understand the concern about the backscatter use.

To quote ScottA once more, "Where does it end?" That's my concern.

I love my children dearly as well but am far more concerned with a technical malfunction or an over worked pilot than a psycho holding a ceramic knife at their throat.

[ScottA]

Ok I had to use my toes and a couple of my wifes fingers. I came up with 24 airline bombings since 1933. Half of which took place during the 1960's.

But anyway, considering how many people fly every single day this still makes for some pretty good odds. So I will accept no security at airports for myself and my family. You did ask what I was willing to tolerate. More importantly is why do you even care if I get on a plane or not? Why do you care if I say so? Did something I say make you feel threatened? How so? Maybe you are in the airline business or maybe the security business? Or maybe you like the idea of putting everyone in a cage?

[glenn kangiser]

The Palestinians are Semitic, so are the Israelis anti-Semitic?  Arabs and many other nations and peoples are Semitic also.

On the way home from work today I already knew the stock - anti-Semite accusations would be thrown out - it is standard procedure any time someone hears an comment about our and Israel government policies that they do not like.  

I am not anti-Semitic and have many relatives listed in the Jewish cemeteries that you can look up if you care to. I think Israelis are great and should run politics - in their own country - not ours.  We should negotiate with them as independent country leaders of another country.  Not as our chief of staf to the president or leader of homeland (disgusting Nazi word based on the fatherland ) security.  A real Jewish lady told me the words "Homeland Security" send chills down her spine.  She is a holocaust survivor.

I am an American - a natural born citizen and descendant of pioneers.  Likely I am not eligible to be president given the standards accepted today.

I do not feel that Israeli citizens should hold our high offices since their allegiance is to Israel so they will compromise our policies.  A man cannot serve two masters.  Bones will be thrown to Israel that should not.  I do not feel that we should support them financially or militarily either.  Let's take care of our own first , if we can afford that.

When they then take that office and use it to promote things such as the stripper machines that they are invested in and profit greatly from it is even worse.  

The fliers have a legitimate health concern from the sloppy backscatter machines that put out an estimated twenty times more that what they are supposed to.

Note that there are going to be vans traveling the highways with more of these things upping your radiation dose even more without you even knowing it.

The biggest deterrent to terrorists (or freedom fighters?) would be if we stopped assaulting them and their families in their homelands and homes  right now.

[NM_Shooter]

2976 persons died in one day due to a small group of folks who smuggled box cutters onto planes.  Got enough fingers and toes to count them?  Let's poll the parents of those that got killed that day and see if the parents would have been willing to have to put up with imaging in exchanged for having their children back. 

Don't misunderstand me... I am not in favor of the full body contact search.  I am completely in favor of backscatter imaging.  It bothers me that those who have false positives have to endure the body search.  There needs to be a subsequent scan.  But any whiny types who purely "opt out" get what they deserve. 

Personally, I don't care if you fly, don't fly, or sit around all day and pack sand.  I have no dog in that fight.   I do care if psychos who wish to harm innocent passengers (and others) try to fly. 

We need to be using the absolute best technology possible to ensure that our flights are secure.  We should be profiling.  Heck, I'm even in support of background checks being used to pre-clear and make the security lines shorter for those who wish to get a "flight clearance" or whatever.   

And I don't believe for a second that you would let your family use planes if it was completely devoid of security practices.  Nope, that's nonsense.

[glenn kangiser]

Sorry Frank... I don't buy the government industrial military complex (Per Ike) conspiracy ridiculous fairytale (as with about 90 % of the rest of the world) so I still don't want to have my tools irradiated.

Our problem with these scanners etc. all stems from our government corruption, covering their crimes, foreign policy geared for industry for theft of other nations resources without regard for the lives of the small mineral rich defenseless countries we chose to destroy for our benefit.

That is why our government attacks our citizens with these harmful devices and tries to keep them groveling or sends them to our courts and prison systems where they can again make a profit.  There they happily transfer the taxpayers money to their pockets too.

[MountainDon]

I do not feel that Israeli citizens should hold our high offices since their allegiance is to Israel so they will compromise our policies.  

Michael Chertoff is as American as Glenn or anyone else who has been born in this country. Michael Chertoff was born in Elizabeth, NJ. His father was a Rabbi, his mother an El Al flight attendant. I assume he gained his Israeli dual citizenship, after he was born an American, because of the policy of Israel to grant Israeli citizenship to anyone who can qualifies under the Israeli Law of Return. Many American borne people have availed themselves of the opportunity to accept Israeli citizenship. It is similar to a person borne in, say Canada; if one of their parents is a US citizen the baby has US citizenship.

It is true that a client of his security firm, the Chertoff Group, is Rapiscan Systems, one of the two manufacturers of this technology. So what?

[ScottA]

I guess the fear mongering really works. Next they will tell you they need to put cameras in your house just in case you decide to rape your daughter. And the same old argument will be told about how the innocent have nothing to fear from security. That's what it's all about... FEAR. Creating and maintaining fear so people will give over their rights, their privacy and most importantly, their money for some false safety. I don't buy the whole planes hijacked with box cutters BS.

[NM_Shooter]

Glenn, you base everything on your dislike of the US government and dislike of Israel.  One nonsensical conspiracy theory after another.  Contrails, big government / big biz, earthquake generation, false flag attacks, whatever.  

Luckily, as long as private companies fly in goverment controlled airspace, they will continue to protect you whether your realize or appreciate it.  

[Windpower]

"2976 persons died in one day due to a small group of folks who smuggled box cutters onto planes"


this 'small group of folks' also forced NORAD to stand down and not scramble any planes as is standard practise

this 'small group of folks' also managed to have the BBC announce that WTC 7 (the Soloman Building) had collapsed (but unfortunately this 'small group of folks' didn't have their timing down and the BBC announcement was 20 minutes ahead of the collapse)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwOT29gbc&feature=related

and this 'small group of folks' warned employees of of the Israeli owned Odigo who had offices in the WTC of the danger 2 hours ahead of the attacks (as reported in  Ha'aretz)

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/odigo-says-workers-were-warned-of-attack-1.70579


and this 'small group of folks' apparently warned ZIM that the WTC was not a safe place (with a little follow up by Chertoff later to cover this one)

ZIM, an Israeli company, vacated its office(10,000 square feet) in the North WTC tower a week before 9/11, breaking its lease. 49% of this company is owned by the Israeli government. The lease ran till the end of 2001, and the company lost $50,000 by breaking the lease. Later, FBI agent Michael Dick, and looking into the suspicious move, was removed from his duties by the head of the Justice Department's criminal division, Michael Chertoff.


Pretty amazing what this 'small group of folks' could do

and you know what ?

the backscatter X-Ray machines would not have stopped any of this

anymore than they stopped the 'underwear bomber' when he went through them in Schipol

[Shawn B]

It is true that a client of his security firm, the Chertoff Group, is Rapiscan Systems, one of the two manufacturers of this technology. So what?

I guess if you find that Dick Cheney and Haliburton just happened by pure chance to make "some" money off of the invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, hurricane Katrina, and the allocating of funds for future FEMA camps then nothing is wrong with it. I for one have major problems with government and ex-government officials profiting from war, fear, and the Big Brother/Police State.


Michael Chertoff is as American as Glenn or anyone else who has been born in this country.


Uh no...no is not. He holds dual citizenship. That brings up the question of which Nation is he more loyal too?  There really should be a proposed constitutional amendment to not allow dual citizens in government or the military. Naturalized citizens cannot.

Why did Clinton, Obama, and McCain all speak before AIPAC after the primaries were over? No power there

As far as airport security is concerned I would return to pre=911 standards any day. Get rid of the naked body scanners, kick Homeland Security out, un-Federalize the airport workers (Thanks Bush, you great limited government champion), let the airlines and airport resume their role of security. Would keep the carry on bag scanner and checked baggage scanner, and the walk through metal detector. People could keep there finger nail clippers and small pocket knives  If a checked bag needed to be opened for some reason the owner would get to be present. The TSA goons always open my suitcase and rifle through it, every time.




So 2976 (using Shooters number) died in one day. Thousands more have died in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan since that day. The U.S. has lost over 6,000 servicemen alone.

[Windpower]

Michael Chertoff - In charge of the Criminal Division in the Justice Department on 9/11. Essentially responsible for the 9/11 NON-investigation. He let hundreds of Israeli spies who were arrested prior to and on 9/11 go back home to Israel. He was also a prosecuting judge in the first terrorist attack on the WTC in 1993. Chertoff purportedly holds dual citizenship with the US and Israel. His family is one of the founding families of the state of Israel and his mother was one of the first ever agents of the Mossad,
His wife, Meryll Chertoff, was a regional director of the ADL. Israel's spy agency. His father and uncle are ordained rabbis and teachers of the Talmud.

[dug]

I suppose I could tolerate, though not fully accept the body scanning invasion if I believed the government truly had my (the public's) best interest in mind. However if they did you would think they would focus on the most probable causes of air travel deaths.

Pilot error is attributed to 50% of all airline fatalities, yet pilots are forced to work longer hours for less pay than in the past, especially on the smaller commuter lines. Often they are forced to fly with less fuel than they are comfortable with. Practices such as these maximize profits for the airlines but endanger you, the paying customer. Where is the outrage?

Maybe it is because truly safer air travel would require higher ticket prices, and people seem much more concerned about wallet than anything else. Raise the safety and maintenance standards of airlines and then I bet you would see some public outrage when the ticket prices jump 50% or more.

Focusing on terrorism yields relatively little safety gain, but it sure does make a lot of people rich.

[Shawn B]

Dug.....I cannot tolerate or accept the naked body scanners, or the Police State at any level. Even if this C.I.A. created Al-qaida threat were genuine threat.


Good point Windpower.....These people just don't come out of nowhere to take charge of high level government positions. There are many dual citizens in the original Obama cabinet and throughout the government. Many, many of them are Israeli dual citizens. When you consider that the Israeli/Jewish population makes up a very small percentage of the 310 million people in the U.S., it seems some red flags should go up somewhere.

[NM_Shooter]

Great!  I'll count on you folks not flying at all.  More peanuts for me!

[ScottA]

Lets not bash Israel for being good at getting their people into positions of power. We'd all do the same thing if we could. The law has not been broken in that regard. Maybe the laws need to be changed but for now they are what they are. The real demon of DC is money and what it buys. If you have enough cash you can get just about any law you want passed. That needs to stop but likely never will. Must be a good deal for those with the printing presses like the FED.

[Windpower]

Posted for all you Israel sycophants



http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Full+body+scanners+waste+money+Israeli+expert+says/2941610/story.html


A leading Israeli airport security expert says the Canadian government has wasted millions of dollars to install "useless" imaging machines at airports across the country.

"I don't know why everybody is running to buy these expensive and useless machines. I can overcome the body scanners with enough explosives to bring down a Boeing 747," Rafi Sela told parliamentarians probing the state of aviation safety in Canada.

"That's why we haven't put them in our airport," Sela said, referring to Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion International Airport, which has some of the toughest security in the world.

Sela, former chief security officer of the Israel Airport Authority and a 30-year veteran in airport security and defence technology, helped design the security at Ben Gurion.

[MountainDon]

I am puzzled.  

The above  pretty much mirrors what my statement "I believe our government is going about this security all the wrong way. We continue to look for bad "stuff" not bad people. If we would spend more time doing the unthinkable... that is profiling people as they entered the airport, etc. it would do a lot more good. Borrowing a leaf from the anti-terror threat book that the Israelis have developed would help more than a bunch of expensive machines and invading everyone's body."  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9805.msg125607#msg125607 was stating.

That statement of mine got the whole anti-Israel crowd started on another round of Israel bashing. Now that last post brings us right back to where I began.  I suppose I should say thank you.

Thank you.


more from the VS article...

"Sela testified it makes more sense to create a "trusted traveller" system so pre-approved low-risk passengers can move through an expedited screening process. That would leave more resources in the screening areas, where automatic sniffing technology would detect any explosive residue on a person or their baggage.

Behavioural profiling also must be used instead of random checks, he said.

"Having a random search at the airport is like Russian roulette," said Sela"


Of course a major difference between many US airports and Ben Gurion is that many US airports have much heavier traffic. That might make Israeli style screening more labor intensive, but that may be preferable to spending fortunes on hardware.


Israel's top 10 airport security technologies

http://www.securityinfowatch.com/Executives/1315842?pageNum=1

[ScottA]

It's really simple. Someone in power is getting richer selling scanners. Common scense be damned.

[John Raabe]

I've gone through Israeli security several times and been interviewed by intelligent, intuitive security personnel (usually young women). They were trained to be very alert to facial and body cues and I felt this was a far better system than our investment in expensive equipment run by bored monitor watchers.

Even when the airport was quite busy these interviews did not seem to slow down the screening process. When I travel in the US the number of TSA people does not seem to be any less than in the Israeli airport.

[NM_Shooter]

One quick question windy....

By your own admission it is not good enough (I agree).

However, it is proven to be able to detect objects that would have gone undetected.

Here's the question...How does removing the backscatter technology help?

[Shawn B]

Can anyone name one incident that T.S.A./Homeland Security has stopped at a airport or on a flight?

[ScottA]

Shawn B I looked all over for an example of a TSA save but all could come up with was that they stopped some 70 yr old lady from smuggling fudge. Musta been some mean fudge.

[bayview]

   What next?   Full body x-rays and cavity searches?   

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