the mess in Eldorado, TX

[StinkerBell]

That's why I have a CNN reference too.        

I might not agree with you, but I gotta give you a "TOUCHE" for that.




I wonder what the national statistics are for underage girls that get pregnant. IF that percentage is the same in that community. I also can think of a few states that would have to change their laws about marriage when a underage girl gets pregnant.......

The pregnancy of under age girls should not be the corner stone of your argument imo. What should be an argument is girls being forced to marry and forced to have sex. Being young and pregnant is not s felony. If So Planned Parent Hood could not exist.





edit: Remember if you get mad at me and do not like my argument, my first name is Stinker!!!

[ScottA]

Shooter I can't prove what i don't know but from what I've seen so far their case is pretty thin. 10 girls suposedly pregnant of married underage based on the churches own records not any official reports or records acording to the CNN report. Thats less than 3% of the 460+ kids taken into custody. I'm not saying no wrong was done. What I'm saying is the way this is being handled is wrong. The rights of these people have been ignored. They are being punnished simply because of where they lived and went to church. Not only that but everyone is being treated as if they are guilty without even getting their own individual hearings.

Would you think it was right for the government take your kids if someone you went to church with commited child abuse? You go to the same church so you must be an abuser too right?

[NM_Shooter]

If I participated in a religion where a fundamental accepted principle was the abuse of children, and I knew this, then i would not be a fit parent and the state should remove my custodial rights.   It would absolutely call into question my judgement.  Not only that, but if I knew about felony illegal activity and did not report it, I should be prosecuted. 

For me to believe otherwise would be hypocritical.   

If you read my previous posts, you would understand my position on teen pregnancy.  Note that the CNN report says "married or pregnant as minors".  I suspect that as DNA evidence becomes available, we'll see the dark side of this group.  Affidavits of underage pregnancies tied with DNA results are going to be hard to defend against.

It is not an erosion of rights to protect the innocent.  Not too long ago, we had kids in this country working for pennies in sweatshops.  These families needed the money, and the employers were able to compete because of the cheap labor.  That wasn't ethical either, and I bet there were a lot of folks that were upset when that got shut down.  The protection of children under labor laws is not an erosion of rights nor privacy.

I've never said that all kids were being abused.  But they were all at risk. And they were all being indoctrinated into thinking that underage polygamous marriage and underage preganancy is acceptable.  So maybe in a psych way, they were all being abused.  Very fine line there.

You know what?  I would love to be absolutely wrong regarding the innocence of the adults at that compound.  I really feel badly for the kids.  But I would bet a ham sandwich with anyone that this is worse than we know.

P.S.  I call you stinker because I like you and I am too lazy to type!  If i didn't like you I would address you formally, e.g. Ms. Stinkerbell.

[StinkerBell]

That is true not long ago we instituted child labor laws.  And through laws and due process we have eradicated these sweatshops.
You seem not to address the issue of due process.

But they were all at risk. And they were all being indoctrinated into thinking that underage polygamous marriage and underage preganancy is acceptable.  So maybe in a psych way, they were all being abused.  Very fine line there.

This comment is a bug juicy worm(you haven't addressed the teenage pregnancy issue in our nation either) But for fun I am going to argue with you.

I quoted you cause your  statement, the last thought is "Very fine line". This is a subjective issue. Some people may think because I did not let my oldest son get a driving permit and drive that I am being abusive and not allowing him his right of passage.  I make my kids go to church with us, sometimes they do not want to go, but they do not have a choice. I guess some would say that is abusive. I am forcing  them to worship Jesus...I might even force them to get baptised.  I might think that those parents who have signed their kids up to do 10 different clubs are abusive. I mean for a kid to go to school, keep good grades, then have baseball 3 times a week, a musical instrument once a week, Scouts, and karate. I personal think some partents push their kids into way to many activities, I consider that abusive, but that is me.  I also think that some religions are bogus and are abusive to kids because they are not being taught who the real God is.

Religion is one of those real touch subjects. I know I want my rights protected and with that I need to make sure people who worship differently then me have their rights protected too.

I too have issues even felt conflicted. BUT I also think this group is a cult and not a true religion. Even in the Mainstream Mormon Church there is Free will. This to me is central. For me this is the threshold. Free will is also key to our liberty in the United States. There are laws that IMO do not conflict with religion. For example the age of consent.

What do we do when some pedophile decides to get enough followers and claim it is their religion to have sex with young boys?

The threshold for me is indeed Free Will.

Now what does this mean? I have a firm rule in my home with my children that we are Christian, and generally have had on a few occasions insisted my kids attend church. Now what if my son or daughter wants to become Buddist? I will assure you I would not be happy and encourage them to really think about their choice, but they will still need to attend church. When they turn 18 and have their own home they can do what they want. Yes it is my roof my rules. But I am not enslaving them into my religion. I am indeed raising them they way I see fit, but they are allowed their Free Will






see even I flip flop a little on the subject. But the law should be blind and be followed. due process has been denied and the thing that got the police to get a warrant to begin with was lie. The warrant imo is no good. This does not mean that after they return the childern they do no monitor and proceed in a legal way.

[NM_Shooter]

This comment is a bug juicy worm(you haven't addressed the teenage pregnancy issue in our nation either) But for fun I am going to argue with you.

Yes I did.  I acknowledged it here:  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4363.msg54004#msg54004  it is a problem everywhere. 

Due process basically boils down to not being able to take life or liberty from someone without just cause and proof.  This does not apply to CPS temporarily removing custody during an investigation.

Your turn... I have not seen much if any response to any of my questions... the below are not rhetorical.  Feel free to comment on them.

What about this... your  kid is in school in a lock down situation.  The police will not let you enter to be with your child.  Is this a violation of your parental rights?

You are not allowed to be present in the operating room when your child has their appendix out.  Are you going to sue?

I really, really want you to answer this next question.

Let's say that your child gets nabbed by a predator while walking home from school.  Your child locks themselves in a closet and calls the police.  According to your argument, you would prefer the police to not respond and enter the home, right?  After all, it is only a phone call.    No right to enter, right?

BTW...Just like legal consent, kids don't get free will.... 

I'm done.  We are going to disagree on this.  I can't argue my logic against other's emotion.  It is a left / right issue and there just is not middle ground.  Thanks for the entertainment.

[StinkerBell]

Due process basically boils down to not being able to take life or liberty from someone without just cause and proof.  This does not apply to CPS temporarily removing custody during an investigation.

Your turn... I have not seen much if any response to any of my questions... the below are not rhetorical.  Feel free to comment on them.

What about this... your  kid is in school in a lock down situation.  The police will not let you enter to be with your child.  Is this a violation of your parental rights?

You are not allowed to be present in the operating room when your child has their appendix out.  Are you going to sue?

Well I have yet to see a lock down situation last over night, I have yet to see an appendix last more then a few hours. Even the police have the right to hold for 72 hours before due process kicks in.

Let's say that your child gets nabbed by a predator while walking home from school.  Your child locks themselves in a closet and calls the police.  According to your argument, you would prefer the police to not respond and enter the home, right?  After all, it is only a phone call.    No right to enter, right?

I have no idea how to correlate this situation.  Please show me in my argument where you draw your comparison.

I do no think I am the one being emotional here. I really do believe I have stood up for something based in law that even I do not agree with.

[StinkerBell]

Underage pregnancy is common.  If it is caused by an adult, and proven, the adult is prosecuted.  This is not the same thing as two teenagers fooling around.  Remember, we are talking about children in their young teens being pregnant... there are huge differences emotionally and physically between an 18 year old and a 13 year old.

I have no issues with the man being 10 years older as long as the woman is of legal consensual age.

This is where things get real fuzzy.In Washington state when a child turns 14 when it comes to any STD, Sexual activity, Mental issues or Drug abuse a parent has no right to be notify if the child tells the doctor do not tell my parents. This same child can go to their Junior High School counselor and request to be take to a planned parenthood or other facility to have an abortion without parental knowledge or consent. Thus meaning your child can come home post abortion bleed out and as a parent you would not know you child is bleeding out in the next room. So, what do you personally think the age of consent is? Because I am confused as heck by laws.

[John_C]

These folks were arranging polygamist marriages of girls as young as 13; and some of you seem to be ok with that.  At what age is a girl too young to be forced into marriage with a much older man?

[StinkerBell]

This is an emotional issue. I understand that.

It is not that I or other approve of the arranging of these marriages.

The issue for me is how the law is being enforced. That is the main issue with me.

[ScottA]

It's turning into a question or morals and whos morals are right and whos are wrong. In the past it was not uncommon for young girls to marry. Arranged marriages are not uncommon either. I think it was Jerry Lee lewis who married his second second cousin when she was 13. It was a scandal back then but he wasn't arrested for it. Regardless of what your personal opinions are the people still deserve to have their rights. If someone broke the law arrest them but don't blame the whole community for the wrongs of a few.

[glenn kangiser]

Sorry I haven't had time to follow this well.

I am against child abuse.

I am for the government doing things according to the constitution, etc including due process and not doing it anyway they please.

If Fox news says it, it will likely be twisted to the rights direction of view and possibly lying.

I am for what is right -- neither "left" or "right".

CNN is known as the Counterfeit News Network.

Take anything the MSM says with a shaker of salt.

[benevolance]

For news I actually like the BBC

CNN and FOX are worthless

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AqARJogplkv7oB73uhJHh45H2ocA

Now at least they are presenting some facts to go with the hype.... there are some numbers finally available.

[MountainDon]

That's what we've been waiting for. I heard the same report earlier today on the radio as well.

Frankly, that's exactly what I believed would be found. As time goes on and the DNA results come in I believe a past pattern will also emerge revealing that many girls/women have given birth at early (underage) ages.

I have been doing some more reading with regards to the early days of the LDS church, the founder Joseph Smith, and the splinter group FLDS and bluntly put, some things are disturbing.

[glenn kangiser]

I believe Bringem Young was in leadership there somewhere too.

[MountainDon]

Brigham Young became the leader after Joesph Smith was shot and died. Young organized the members move west from Illinois.

[MountainDon]

For those who may be interested here's a link to the book corner with a book on the FLDS

[Redoverfarm]

I think it will come down to alot of "whos your daddy" and "funny he's mine too"

[MountainDon]

The family tree can become quite intertwined and hard to follow without a flow chart, what with brothers "marrying" the brothers wifes daughter, or "marrying" their own daughters, or "marrying" the daughter of their sister who is "married" to their father,......

[StinkerBell]

I have a question, please do not stone me. 

I think we generally agree what has been alleged at this compound is wrong, I also think that we might generally agree how it was initially handled was wrong....But that is not the question.

I sit here and ponder the heavy weight of this situation. This lifestyle going on for over a century. Our government tried once before about 40+ years ago to stop it.  My question is if these people have been living this lifestyle for over 100 years how can we blame only the men for this mess? This too is the only lifestyle they know too.

I do not want to make anyone mad, I am just trying to really think this through without emotion but with facts.

[MountainDon]

... how can we blame only the men for this mess? This too is the only lifestyle they know too.

First of all, if I sound angry, it is not directed at anyone specific here. It's an anger directed at whatever has allowed this polygamy based abuse system to continue.

You're right that the men involved there today have been brought up to believe that their way of life, as taught to them, is fit and proper. They believe having a plurality of wives increases their likelihood of entering heaven. At the same time, according to their beliefs, those same men hold the power to invite their wives into heaven, or not. Their wives are taught that, the children are taught that. So, left to their own isolation the circle of abuses is self perpetuating. I can't believe that the majority of the population of the country could really favor such a situation.

Who else, or what else, can be blamed for their behavior? Looking at the population of the group it seems to me that the blame must be placed on the men. The women and children have no say in any matters. They are taught it is wrong to be disobedient. They are taught to do as they are told.

But yes, there is someone else to blame. It's all those people who are apathetic and say "it's none of my concern".   It's all those people who place the intervention of any government agency as being a greater evil than the risk of child abuse. It's me, it's you, it's our neighbors and friends, and it's people people we don't even know. It's the fault of the liberal media who scream abuse of civil liberties instead of screaming about the possibility of abuse of the children and the women.

You are right again. The polygamist lifestyle has been going on since the time of Joseph Smith. The area in NW Arizona, known as the Arizona Strip, was settled in the 1910's by a group that became the present day  FLDS. In 1953 the Arizona government sent well over 140 state police, county sheriffs, and national guardsmen into Short Creek, AZ (now named Colorado City). They arrested over a hundred polygamous men and women and took over 200 children into care. The governor said in a statement,

"Here has been a community entirely dedicated to the warped philosophy that a small handful of greedy and licentious men should have the right and the power to control the destiny of every human soul in the community. Here is a community - many of the women, sadly, right along with the men - unalterably dedicated to the wicked theory that every maturing girl should be forced into the bondage of multiple wifehood with men of all ages for the sole purpose of producing more children to become more chattels of this lawless enterprise."

The raid made headlines across the country. The story made it to the front page of the NY Times. The LDS Church, through its newspaper the Deseret News editorialized in favor of the action. To the dismay of the LDS Church and the Arizona authorities most of the press presented the polygamists in a favorable light, playing upon emotions with pictures of crying mothers and children. Where have I seen that before? The fundamentalists protested they were upstanding law abiding Mormons simply exercising their constitutionally protected freedoms. To make a long story short the governor lost the election the next year. Within a couple years all the FLDS men were back in Short Creek and unapologetically resumed living "The Principle".

Thanks to the ill-perceived public backlash the FLDS were left free to continue their practice of polygamy. 

I could go on about another couple cases where men were convicted of child abuse stemming from events in polygamous enclaves, but I'm not going to. Suffice to say that for some reason the courts were lenient in their sentencing of the guilty. Somehow there has never been sufficient public outrage expressed for these cycles of abuse to be broken. The ACLU has even come to the defense of the FLDS in past cases advancing the polygamists claims of religious persecution.

Anyhow with the history of past attempts to break up the abuses perpetrated upon children for decades I'm surprised that the state of Texas had the guts to proceed at all.

BTW, the Constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."  It does not grant the right to break laws in the expression of one's religious beliefs.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Very well said, Don. 

[MountainDon]

One other thing that I thought is strange.

From an AP story...

"Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split — 197 girls and 196 boys — but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range."
{ED: that's a ratio of 24% boys / 76% girls}

Maybe it's simply an accident of birth, but the proportion of boys 14 to 17 years old is vastly different than the age distribution of all the children 0 to 17. It's also quite different from the usual nearly 51% boys / 49% girls split in the balance of the population.

Where are the missing boys? 

[StinkerBell]

One of the things bothering me with this whole issue, is that this group FLDS is seen as a splinter religious group. This not not a religious group but a cult. I really feel the need to draw this distinction.

[MountainDon]

Oh I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment.  I referred to them as a cult in some prior posts and, perhaps too subtly to make any impression, used church when referring to FLDS and Church when referring to the mainline LDS Church.

As a cult I don't believe they can hide behind the protection of religious freedom, not that that is a valid abuse defense.