Started by flyingvan, January 29, 2012, 12:11:35 PM
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Quote from: rick91351 on December 16, 2013, 07:20:44 AMAs far as the 8000 hours I am not too impressed with that and claims working in the field
Quote from: flyingvan on December 15, 2013, 08:31:29 PM Here are my sources---first, the national electrical code. Second, for the theoretical stuff, from a good friend that has a masters in electrical engineering---he's the one that explained to me the importance of balancing the two legs and the less load on the neutral, the more efficiently the house runs. He showed me graphs and things that were well beyond my level of understanding but I'll use him as a resource to verify any conceptual issues that arise here. But I'm glad you're chiming in here, Eddie. First, if you can convince me that, as an amateur, I've wired something incorrectly that I can change, I'll be in your debt. If you are not able to do that, I'll assume it's a blow to your ego to see people can successfully wire entire houses after reading a book or two and understanding the concepts. You've already provided some valuable examples of fallacious argument, the study of which is a hobby of mine."Honestly everything you say about electrical work is completely absurd..." Excellent example of an Ad Hominem attack. Attack the person, not the argument. You've had time to provide multiple replies to provide an example of something unsafe this amateur has done, but instead attack the amateur."I have 8000 hours of apprenticeship and years working in the field". "I am an electrician who has been properly trained and do it every day I am not a diyer" (Keep in mind this is a DIYer website) This is a classic example of "Argument from authority". the claim that the speaker is an expert, and so should be trusted.There are degrees and areas of expertise. The speaker is actually claiming to be more expert, in the relevant subject area, than anyone else in the room. There is also an implied claim that expertise in the area is worth having. For example, claiming expertise in something hopelessly quack (like iridology) is actually an admission that the speaker is gullible.Another anticipated fallacious argument here is "Non Sequitur". There are two things going on here---one, how my house is wired and two, my conceptual understanding of electricity. It's possible that I have a misunderstanding of electrical physics but still wired my houses correctly. It is also possible I understand physics perfectly but made a practical error in wiring. "Appeal To Authority". Taking a selective quote from the NEC to draw your own conclusion about who is 'qualified'. Are you planning on building, Eddie? Will you hire out everything except the wiring? I had a very similar conversation with an architect who would not accept I could draw my own plans without training. I am not qualified for that either. Plumbing? again, in my opinion much tougher than electrical, I'm not qualified, but the toilets in my first owner/builder project still flush perfectly after 10 years, into a septic system I wasn't qualified to install. I wasn't qualified to frame, pour a foundation, create some stone work, run fiber optics, do roofing, figure sheer loading, or any of the other tasks required to construct a home. If you've done any of these things, Eddie, you were probably no more 'qualified' to do them than we are to run wire. If you haven't, you are no authority on what the most difficult, and what the easiest, stages of construction are! But we are diy'ers. We find forums like this to get over the hurdles. We use common sense, and research the span tables and nailing schedules and required strong ties and proper wire gauges and breaker amps. We read the NEC to learn what gets grounded and bonded. We look to the IPC or UPC to learn how much through roof vent net area we need. We study airflows and btu's and return air and combustion air; carbon monoxide can make people just as dead as electricity if not handled correctly. Finally--I've walked through quite a few mass produced homes, in various stages of construction, built by qualified people. Know what I noticed? 'Qualified' gets you to the point where you know the shortcuts. You learn what the very minimum to pass inspection are. The goal is speed and low cost to get the subcontracts, not the very best house that can be built. I could have passed inspection with 2x4 walls, but for a few hundred dollars more framed it with 2x6's. It's superior for a number of reasons, but saving that few hundred dollars times 10,000 units adds up. Most mass produced houses around here are wired with 14AWG wire throughout; for a little more, I went with 12AWG. Can you tell me how this will burn my house down? By the way, if your home is ever on fire, PLEASE don't wait for us qualified, trained professionals to evacuate your house and provide your own fire suppression. It will harm my ego exactly zero to hear you used your own hose and fire extinguisher to safely mitigate the situation. I trust your abilities extend beyond your electrical expertise.
Quote"Don't try to put 15 amp switches or outlets on 12 AWG wire." Why? It's perfectly code compliant ............This may be minor false information ...............
Quote from: flyingvan on December 16, 2013, 06:48:29 PM "2) 15 amp breakers get 14 AWG wire or better. 20's get 12 AWG. Don't try to put 15 amp switches or outlets on 12 AWG wire." This is an excellent example of owner/builders not taking shortcuts. Putting 15 amp things on 12 AWG wires IS forbidden in many jusirdictions, and the differences are not just in the faceplate as you claim. There are 15 amp switches and outlets with push in terminals that will not accept 12 AWG wire, uless you shave it down and force it in. (BTW--screw terminals always give a better contact than push in terminals. I consider them a shortcut and they also have been linked to fires and frequent circuit failures) If owner/builders follow the rule above, are they more likely, or less likely, to be safe and compliant? What do YOU consider the easiest stage of home construction to be? I realize this is an owner/builder forum, not a semantics/rhetoric forum but I just can't resist. This provided another fallacious argument example--Argument of the Half Truth (suppressed evidence) The entire single numbered line I wrote encourages builders to start at 20 amps, use the correct guage wire (or better!) and end with a 20 amp outlet/switch. By cutting the quote in half, the context changed, though I don't think to the level of making the statement 'absurd'.Further, the electrical code forbids putting 20a outlets on 15a service, with good reason. My statement was carefully made to encompass possible variations of the electrical code and provide an awareness of the importance of breakers, wires, and fixtures to be sized properly. We get house fires wired by qualified electricians that ran 15 AWG wire off 20a breakers. After seeing it enough times, I thought it important to include.
Quote"1. What is 15 AWG ? "
Quoteflyingvan stated: "code forbids putting 20a outlets on 15a service"eddie1278 stated: "it's perfectly NEC code compliant to use 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits with 12 gauge wire."
Quote from: flyingvan on March 13, 2014, 08:29:56 AMNot sure---but if you take the number of red-e-crete bags you can run through a Kobalt Big Cat mixer before you kill it and multiply that by two, you'll be pretty close Thanks for the kind words!