Just wondering if there are any patriots on this board?

[ScottA]

It's more like a mutated form of serfdom in which the government acts as a go between. The serfs labors aren't owned by the lords directly, rather the government collects the lords share of their labors then redistributes it back to the lords.

Call it what you like it is a form of slavery.

[archimedes]

Being required to purchase private insurance (or pay a fee) to protect yourself in the event of illness is not slavery.  It's a silly word to use. 

We have more freedom in this country than anywhere in the world.  I know, I've traveled to six different continents,  and lived in three.  You have every right to disagree with certain political ideas, but to say that we are slaves is just plan silly.  It's factually, and empirically incorrect.

[Pox Eclipse]

Another word that gets thrown around without regard to the historical meaning is "tyranny".  Paying taxes that are at the lowest marginal rate in 50 years is not tyranny.  It's pretty weak sauce when a freely elected government in a representational democracy is cast in the same light as true tyrants like Stalin, Pol Pot or Idi Amin.  Call me when the government slaughters thousands and dumps them in mass graves, then we will talk tyranny.  You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own definitions.

[Whitlock]

Copyed from Wikipedia

Slavery (in the past, also called serfdom or thralldom) is a system in which people are the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand wages. In some societies it was legal for an owner to kill a slave; in others it was a crime.[1]

The organization Anti-Slavery International defines slavery as "forced labour." By this definition there are approximately 27 million slaves in the world today, more than at any point in history and more than twice as many as all African slaves who survived being taken to the Americas in the Atlantic slave trade.[2][3][4]

The International Labour Organisation, however, does not equate forced labour with slavery. According to ILO, there are estimated 12 million people around the world still working under coercion in forced labour, slavery and slavery-like practices.[5]

Most are debt slaves, largely in South Asia, who are under debt bondage incurred by lenders, some for generations.[6] Human trafficking is mostly for prostituting women and children into the sex trade.[7] It is described as "the largest slave trade in history", is the fastest growing organized crime industry and according to predictions is set to outgrow drug trafficking.[7][8]

[OlJarhead]

Another word that gets thrown around without regard to the historical meaning is "tyranny".  Paying taxes that are at the lowest marginal rate in 50 years is not tyranny.  It's pretty weak sauce when a freely elected government in a representational democracy is cast in the same light as true tyrants like Stalin, Pol Pot or Idi Amin.  Call me when the government slaughters thousands and dumps them in mass graves, then we will talk tyranny.  You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own definitions.

Not so fast -- good PR maybe, great propaganda but nonsense none-the-less.  Today we have something called "tax diversity" (you can quote me as coining that one) which is where you shotgun blast people with little taxes so that they can't figure out what they actually pay and don't realize they actually PAY MORE in taxes.

Here is an example of how this works:  Lower Income Tax to say 15% for a certain tax bracket, then raise Fuel Tax, Cigarette tax, alcohol tax, gas tax, death tax and who know what else...in fact there are entire websites devoted to just trying to sort out what taxes you do pay.

It's insane and when you add all the new taxes coming (thank you Obamacare) it's going to get worse.

Now, PoxEclipse, it is nice of you to point out that the Bush tax cuts did lower ALL OF OUR taxes (something you Liberals usually lie about) and that because of him (he made a lot of mistakes but this is something good) we have lower Federal Income Tax however, there are so many taxes that Progressives in various states increased and added to offset the Federal Income Tax that it made little difference.

And of course, in the end who cares if they even did away with Income Tax if all they did was create 12 new taxes to take it's place.  Liberals would scream "But you don't even pay taxes" all the while you're losing 50 cents on the dollar to fund their 'big brother' programs.

How it is that those who hate big government always vote for big government I don't know but it astounds me.

I say do away with ALL personal taxes.  Let me earn what I earn thanks.  You could get rid of a lot of Federal and State Employees and save tons of money...and yes I've heard the weak kneed lamo argument that businesses will just pass it on to you -- DUH -- what do you think they do today?  But at least I could fire the IRS (ok maybe only 90% of them) and dump tons of state IRS types and thereby save millions and put H&R Block out of business (unless they cater to businesses) and get us plain old citizens back to what we do best -- minding our own business.

[NM_Shooter]

Now, PoxEclipse, it is nice of you to point out that the Bush tax cuts did lower ALL OF OUR taxes (something you Liberals usually lie about) and that because of him (he made a lot of mistakes but this is something good) we have lower Federal Income Tax however, there are so many taxes that Progressives in various states increased and added to offset the Federal Income Tax that it made little difference.

Stay tuned.  The Bush tax cuts are sunsetting soon.  Biggest tax hike in history coming up. 

[Pox Eclipse]

I say do away with ALL personal taxes.  Let me earn what I earn thanks.

The quaint notion that you should get to keep everything you earn certainly isn't what the Founding Fathers intended when they wrote the Constitution and gave Congress the power to collect taxes.  The ink on the Constitution wasn't even dry when the George Washington sent troops into Pennsylvania to collect the whisky tax from farmers who were as misinformed as you about liberty and taxes.

If you wish to indulge in the pointless fantasy that you have the right to keep everything you earn, I won't stand in your way; but you cannot claim the original text of the Constitution as justification.

[SardonicSmile]

I say do away with ALL personal taxes.  Let me earn what I earn thanks.

The quaint notion that you should get to keep everything you earn certainly isn't what the Founding Fathers intended when they wrote the Constitution and gave Congress the power to collect taxes.  The ink on the Constitution wasn't even dry when the George Washington sent troops into Pennsylvania to collect the whisky tax from farmers who were as misinformed as you about liberty and taxes.

If you wish to indulge in the pointless fantasy that you have the right to keep everything you earn, I won't stand in your way; but you cannot claim the original text of the Constitution as justification.

We all have the right to keep everything we earn, but I doubt anyone here is willing to fight and die for that right. Same way it is with all the other laws we dislike.

The laws will become much worse in the future, and maybe then we'll want to overthrow them. The problem is.. if we let things get to that point, we will most likely be unable to fight. The rights we had to protect ourselves will be long gone.

[OlJarhead]

I say do away with ALL personal taxes.  Let me earn what I earn thanks.

The quaint notion that you should get to keep everything you earn certainly isn't what the Founding Fathers intended when they wrote the Constitution and gave Congress the power to collect taxes.  The ink on the Constitution wasn't even dry when the George Washington sent troops into Pennsylvania to collect the whisky tax from farmers who were as misinformed as you about liberty and taxes.

If you wish to indulge in the pointless fantasy that you have the right to keep everything you earn, I won't stand in your way; but you cannot claim the original text of the Constitution as justification.

You missed my point entirely (which doesn't surprise me) this tax was on distillers....read your article again.

[Pox Eclipse]

You missed my point entirely (which doesn't surprise me) this tax was on distillers....read your article again.

Are you going to pretend that the "distillers" were big, faceless corporations and not small farmers converting their corn crop into spirits? 

[ScottA]

To me the issue isn't paying taxes but rather how much we are forced to pay and the way the money is wasted and outright stolen. Income tax is just a tiny part of the total tax burden. Sit down and try to figure out how much you really pay. It's likely over 50% of your income which is about what the serfs of old had to pay in the form of labor. A more realistic amount is somewhere around 10-15%.

Federal income taxes
Social security tax...I paid this all my life and now they want to cut it...do I get a refund? nope
medicare tax...did this get repealed when they passed the mandatory insurance law? nope...why not?
State income taxes
excise taxes
property taxes...in OK we are taxed on all our property including furniture and houshold items.
sales taxes...9% here in OK
licence fees
automobile taxes
phone taxes...look at your phone bill. The tax is almost as much as the phone service.
fuel taxes
the list goes on and on....

[StinkerBell]

ScottA,

How can you forget the Death Tax?

[ScottA]

I didn't forget it. It's not really relavent to day to day living. But it is part of the wealth drain that forces people to keep working. Ever notice how the bucket seems to have holes drilled in it so it can never be filled?

Inflation tax...did you know about that one? it has run about 95% over the past 100 years or so. If your great grandfather had saved a dollar in 1910 and given it to you it would be worth about 5 cents in buying power today.

Death tax...make sure the next generation has to work

property tax...make sure you have to work to keep what you already paid for

[StinkerBell]

The air we breath tax...isnt that cap and trade?



‎"No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the Legislature is in session." - Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866

[NM_Shooter]

I'd rather not know my full tax rate.... there is little to nothing I can do about it. 

Death and taxes.

-f-

[cbc58]

I have devised a relatively simple solution for addressing this problem.  Send out bills, monthly, to each taxpayer for any spending that the govt. does so that nothing is financed.  When bills hit peoples mailboxes they will be up in arms and start getting REALLY involved in govt.  Everything is hidden and the can has been kicked down the road... and now we have reached a dead end.

[ScottA]

The air we breath tax...isnt that cap and trade?

I remember an old cartoon in Mad magazine where they had fitted people with breathing masks that had little meters like parking meters attached that you had to put coins in so you could breath. I wonder if they knew how close they really where to predicting the future.

[muldoon]

interesting discussion.

It's not slavery, it's much more akin to feudalism as I see it.  It seems to me that very few people actually want freedom.  It seems to me people want to be taken care of, they want their handouts, their tax breaks, their perks and the like.  They want their king to take care of them. 

As I watch the europe crises unfold, I cannot help but know that eventually it will look the same here.  As the situation deteriosriates there will be more marching in the streets - but they wont be asking for freedom.  they wont be asking for a sound monetary foundation.  they wont be asking for prosperity.  they will be asking for their pensions.  their healthcare.  their welfare.  those will be the voices filling the streets.  begging their king to take care of them at whatever cost is necessary. 

So, it's not slavery, but it is the very opposite of liberty and freedom as well. 

[Don_P]

1932

[glenn kangiser]

In California we are taxed annually on our working tools - unsecured property I think they call it.....

There is no one lower than someone who would steal a mans tools and taxing them annually is a form of stealing them.  The parasites just can't get enough....ever...

[ScottA]

They wouldn't need so much money if they stopped giving cell phones to people on welfare or trying to rule the world for that matter.
Our tools are taxed here too Glenn.

[glenn kangiser]

Isn't it fitting that just like a thief, the parasitic tax collector not only steals our hard earned money, but while leaching off of the working class, they themselves have no unsecured property to tax.

[MushCreek]

How do they go about taxing tools? Between home and work, I'd be in deep doo-doo!

[glenn kangiser]

I guess a masochist would declare them and send them a list, otherwise if you depreciate them on your fed tax form they seem to pick them up and perpetually tax you on them.  Also come to think of it, it seems there is a form you are supposed to rat yourself out on. [ouch]

I sometimes forget how to fill it out as the fed tax is supposed to be voluntary and the state tax is based on the fed tax.

I haven't had a lot of excess time for volunteer work lately.....

[peternap]

I'm glad I read this entire thread before responding. I was afraid I'd have to agree with POX. (He's from up north you know ).

Slavery may not be the best word. An old friend who is an historian, writer and a Native American, once told me about the way the Cherokee tried to conform to the new white society. They did very well and became property owners, farmers and were active in the white community.

That was all taken away in some states, including Virginia.
His last statement was, "Now the white Government is doing it to you too".

That's true!

There are ways to fight it. I don't subscribe to the armed rebellion program...at least not yet. The main reason is that there's no way to win unless there is a leader and organized movement. There isn't.

Every year I go to Richmond as a Lobbyist. I don't make money, it costs me...a lot. It's emotionally and physically draining and every year I leave saying I can't do it again. There's never anyone to take my place though and I go back because it's the most productive way to fight I can come up with right now.

The system we have is broken, corrupt and bloated...but the core values are still there. Hopefully some day, enough people will take the time to get involved and do more than talk. We may be able to rebuild the system just like we'd rebuild an old engine.

Soapbox mode off