too many children rant

[glenn kangiser]

  You gals Crack me up.  Mud wrestling anybody?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Watch out for the flying kitchen utensils, Glenn..

[MountainDon]

Discussions require Logic. This discussion has arrived at the point where it is consumed by mostly Emotions.

I believe this has been beaten to death and everybody should take a day off, have a cold shower or something, and let Emotions cool down.

[glenn kangiser]

....aw shucks......    It was just getting fun.

[MountainDon]

We've been on the verge of hurling epithets, or maybe passed it,  for a few pages already. I think we should bury this. Of course that is just my opinion. I'm going to listen to myself even if nobody else cares to.

[tanya]

"Discussions require Logic. This discussion has arrived at the point where it is consumed by mostly Emotions.

I believe this has been beaten to death and everybody should take a day off, have a cold shower or something, and let Emotions cool down." 

Be more specific, I see no reason at all why logic would prevent emotions.  I am sorry I asked if she was on crack, I know that was not the right thing to do.  I have to be honest, facisim scares me to death.  I would never survive it.     

[Jens]

Ern, the thing that makes me sad, is that I can't get what I am trying to say accross, or perhaps can't type it in a fashion to be understood.  Or maybe it can't be understood, that's ok too.  If only we could all just sit and drink tea together.

Stink, the fascist thing is a jest, playing upon the secular worlds view of Christians, especially viewed within historical actions.  Most of my closest friends are Christian, but the kind who try to follow Jesus' lead to the best of their ability, not the historical kind (of whom I fear there are way too many, and pray I am wrong) who use their power within the Church for personal, political agendas, wealth, and so on.  

Wow, this is heated!  Mostly civil, but you girls are definitely pulling out the big guns now.

Adonai, forgive us our iniquities, gather us within the folds of your grace, give us hearts of shalom, instruct us in the ways of torah/Yeshua/love, be for us the beacon of hope, whose own incredibly simple ways stay hidden so often, shelter us through the darkness of our hearts, and give us rest.  Baruch atah Adonai.  Amen

[tanya]

"Stink, the fascist thing is a jest, playing upon the secular worlds view of Christians, especially viewed within historical actions.  "

I don't know what you mean by it is a jest but I can assure you it is NOT.  I actually could care less what anybodys spiritual beliefs are if they are based in love, the true god for me.  BUT I can tell you I have a deep resentment for the facist policies the corporate structure and the govt. often put on citizens more and more these days.  People say this is emotional?  Well this is a smokescreen issue.  The majority of welfare moms ARE raising one or two children and get assistance for brief periods of time.  But this issue gives the corporate world and opportunity to get the publics support on an anti welfare stance.  Why would the corporate world want to do that, well the same reason everybody doesn't like welfare they don't want to pay the taxes.  BUT what they DO VERY MUCH WANT is YOUR TAX MONIES going overseas to insure their corporate profits are protected and enhanced and if you don't believe it ask yourself why we have had MILLIONS of dollars in the past two stimulas packages going overseas???  Why we give tax breaks to companies that ship US jobs overseas?  These are not emotional issues these are examples of how the news media will use one woman and her newborns as a smokesceen, to evade responsibility for the real economic melt down, and to shove their facist policies down US citizens throats. 

[glenn kangiser]

I can agree that the media will use it to distract the people from the financial and government failure issues.  that is very common lately.  I can agree we are a fascist nation for the most part with big government and big business sleeping together and using our children for cannon fodder, but I still say the girl is irresponsible.

[tanya]

WEll I will agree it was irresponsible for her to give them cannon fodder.  BUTTTTTT For reality's sake how many welfare moms are REALLY getting IVF?  How many single moms?  How many women could ever really carry 8 babies with 8 live births?  OF course it is a BIG story but her reasons and choices are her own in this country for the time being anyway. 

[glenn kangiser]

That is exactly the point.  Most welfare moms use it as it was meant to be.  To help get them out of a bad situation.  She created her own bad situation and abused the system for no reason except wanting company.

[NM_Shooter]

I gotta say that i am really, really disappointed with this thread.  Biggest food fight since the FLDS fiasco and I missed being in on it.  Dang.   

-f-

[Dog]

I think Tanya might be sleeping. shhhhhhhhhh.....

[tanya]

"That is exactly the point.  Most welfare moms use it as it was meant to be.  To help get them out of a bad situation.  She created her own bad situation and abused the system for no reason except wanting company"

Well after further reading I have to say she wasn't as brilliant as I thought.  In fact she was only expecting to end up with TWO out of the deal AT THE MOST.  So I have to say that the fertility clinic is responsible for malpractice. So given this new information, I think with $100,000 in her pocket and a reasonably stable environment she had every right/reason to go ahead it was the doctor who screwed up implanting all 6 embryos.  Therefore I think once again the taxpayers should be let off the hook because the clinic should PAY!!!

Just a few more layers since I was up so late last night.  How much liability should sperm doners have in these situations.  After all they leave their "product"  unattended for the use of strangers.  There are no real protections for the eventual children of these donors and no real screening to see if the would be parents are suitable.  I bet that guy just hopes to hell the clinic protects his privacy. She had the babies but it STILL takes TWO to tango.   Perhaps we should have responsibility laws which state if the parents are unfit then the donor has to step up, or the clinic has to make other arrangements.  Or are we only willing to paint the mother with a scarlet W.M. for welfare mom? 

[glenn kangiser]

Tanya --- I think we can pretty much come to an agreement here although I think we should continue a bit for Frank's benefit.  Generally He and I choose opposing sides,,,,

I agree, Tanya.  If guys go around spewing sperm for mothers who may make poor choices to use, then I think they should also be held responsible.  It's like leaving a loaded gun within a child's reach.  What was he thinking anyway and can the state find him. 

I will be hanging on to all of mine I know, no matter how much it could improve the world.

[MountainDon]

I'll come back to join in the fray about sperm donors.

A sperm donor is not much different than a blood or plasma donor. Both enable medical services to be performed by a doctor. The relationship goes no further than the man being the vendor of the sperm or the blood. After either leaves his possession he has no control over what is done with them, therefore he has no responsibility for and births, birth defects, medical bills, etc. In many cases guys donate sperm to a sperm bank, just like I donate blood to the blood bank. I have no idea where my blood goes and the anonymous sperm doner has no idea where his sperm goes.

In some cases the woman may make personal arrangements with a friend for a sperm donation. When this done by delivering the sperm in a medical non personal method the male doner bears no responsibility for the offspring either. I believe it is a wholly different matter if the man makes the delivery in person, first hand rather than second hand, so to speak.

[tanya]

I believe your logic is flawed.  One important difference between donating blood/plasma and donating sperm.  Sperm often results in another helpless human being, whereas blood plasma donations will not.  I see no reason why they should not bear the responsibility of thier donation particularly when it was donated to an unethical agency.  The mother has responsibilities to make sure the resulting children are well cared for why shouldn't the donor have that same responsibility?  Of course I believe the clinic should be held 150 percent responsible in this particular case since she was expecting one baby two tops, and the "doctor" implanted six.  That is cruel and unusual torture in my opinion and I think not only should he be facing license revokation but also crimminal charges.

[MountainDon]

The typical donation of sperm is done anonymously. The donors have to sign waivers of their parental rights. Therefore the reverse should also be true; the donors can not be placed in a position of responsibility. The sperm is out of their hands after they make the donation. Literally.

The mother to be, shopping for a baby gets to read a synopsis of the physical traits of the donor. That's it. Some banks have strict criteria for donors; the mom to be would know what those standards are. She also has to sign papers stating that she takes on all responsibility for the child(ren).

Some states have laws stating that sperm donors have no parental rights. Maybe they all do?

BTW, About 150 commercial sperm banks exist in the United States; these banks are often clustered around universities where many intelligent and virile young men live.  The qualities present in college students are in high demand among infertile couples trying to have a baby.  Thus, approximately 50 to 90 percent of all sperm donors are college students!  The remaining 10 to 50 percent of donors come from all walks of life and have a variety of interests, values, and skills.

The screening process takes from 8 weeks to 6 months depending on the sperm bank to which the man is applying.  If the man is one of the lucky 5 percent of applicants who are accepted to donate, he will be paid from $40 to $100 for each semen sample.  A donator can sire a maximum of 10 children and potentially make up to $6,000 in a year.  Sperm donation is usually motivated by money rather than altruism.

Link of interest...
What are the Ethical Considerations for Sperm Donation?

[MountainDon]

Not all donations end up impregnating single women. There are couples, very much in love with watch other who are unable to conceive because the man is shooting blanks. In a case like that they can have a baby thanks to an anonymous sperm donation. The donor should have no rights to be involved with the child and the donor should be free from any parental responsibility.

My opinion; nothing more.

[NM_Shooter]

Well crap.  I agree with Glenn's view, therefore no fun to be had here  .  I agree with Don too, but I am missing the connection with Tanya's logic.

-f-

[tanya]

So you guys say if the sperm donors sperm ends up being used irresponsibly then he should have no responsibility?   Just because the system is set up so that right now they don't, it doesn't mean it should stayt hat way.  Sure married couples might want a child using a sperm donor, it is no different than single moms in terms of receiving the donation.  What I am suggesting is that a human life is created from the sperm donation and everyone involved should be mandated to a line of succession concerning the child's well being.  In other words if the mother is somehow unfit when the child is born, and no other provisions are made by her, and the clinic is strictly in the business of providing sperm not arranging other parenting options, then who is responsible for the child the taxpayers?  And is everybody fine with that? 

[MountainDon]

So you guys say if the sperm donors sperm ends up being used irresponsibly then he should have no responsibility?

Absolutely; your statement is illogical. Stating that the sperm donor should be responsible for the irresponsible mother is like saying the ladder manufacturer is liable for injuries if some idiot stands on the step above the "do not stand above this step" sign, falls off striking his head, incurring brain damage that prevents him from being employed. Or would you be in favor of awarding the ladder abuser some financial award from the ladder manufacturer because he can not work anymore and the ladder company has "deep pockets"?



What do you mean by the statement "the mother is somehow unfit when the child is born"? I assume you mean a permanent situation. not temporary. She dies? Or there is a major medical trauma and she becomes a quadriplegic?

But, yes, basically the situation is the same no matter how the conception occurred. If there is no mother or other family to care for the child, then whatever systems are in place, the social safety net, kicks in. The donor is not family.

If the law was written to force the responsibility for the child onto the donor, that would quickly dry up the available sources of donors. That would be penalizing the couple with a legitimate desire for a child they cannot conceive themselves. Or is that what you'd like to see?

[NM_Shooter]

What I am suggesting is that a human life is created from the sperm donation and everyone involved should be mandated to a line of succession concerning the child's well being.  

Hmmmm... okay, let's run with your logic.  In that case then, the doctor who fertilizes the woman is responsible, as is the landlord and owner of the building.  The mechanic who fixed the car that allowed the woman to go to the clinic is responsible, as is the manufacturer and salesman of the car.  Let's not forget the gas company, and while we're at it, let's go after the big, evil oil companies too! 

And what about the old boyfriends.  If they hadn't dumped her, they would have been the father, but no.... they didn't stick around.  Probably liable for the poor woman's state of mind.  Get them too.  Oh... and her mom and dad, and any supportive siblings.

Where does the responsibility stop? 

If a person chooses to voluntarily and knowingly put anything in their body, the sole responsibility lands on their shoulders, and no one else.  This is true whether they used tobacco, alcohol, drugs, semen, fatty foods, whatever.

Why is it that so many people are so damn eager to look for someone else to be responsible for problems that they alone caused? 

-f-

[muldoon]

. . o O ( 12 pages on the children rant ,...  and yet no visible outrage on the tax cheat treasury secretary?  )

[MountainDon]

ready willing and able... I simply need the pump to be primed....