Iran War Already Begun?

[benevolance]

A fan of William Sherman I see..

I agree that It would be better to bring the troops home from Asia and the middle East...And spend time efforts and monies on making America a even better place to live...Spend monies investing in our economy....Balancing the books paying own debts...

Sadly the Iraq war was going to happen... 10 years ago or a little better when Clinton first became president...There was a new Think tank commishioned by the white house... It was just after the Soviet Union fragmented into 13 countries...The Cold war was over and Americans we overjoyed that they were the last superpower.

Anyways Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfield..They came up with the Project for the new American Century back in the 90's. This Neo Conservative group decided that They needed to Invade Iraq.

They presented this must do idea to Clinton who told them they were clearly insane... Ten years later Bush and Company invaded Iraq... This war was immanent... It was planned down to every detail...Everything that could be done was done to bring the war to fruitition.

This group of Psychos can be read about... scary scary stuff...Makes the boogeyman look like Tickle me Elmo

http://www.thefourreasons.org/pnac.htm

[Sassy]

Looks like a good website to research - lots of info there...

[peg_688]

I see no one mentioned that they where released and that "extra " carrier is now headed to it "normal" / scheduled  station in the gulf.

So was it the carriers "armed to the teeth, headed for Mr. Armadajads (sp)   coast , or was it his generous kind heart that lead him to this quick release

[glenn-k]

Maybe a combination of both, but will it do him any good?

I guess it's a wait and see thing.

[benevolance]

Peg

It might have been the release of the Iranian diplomats and Interpreters that were seized working in Iraq by US forces some time ago...

Several have been released during the time the 15 British sailors were held and a handful more have been made available to Government officials in Iran...And their  release is likely...

This has as much to do with the release of the 15 british sailors as anything.

What is interesting is that before the British sailors were captured/Taken....The US government denied taking having the iranians that they this week released

I guess they found them lying around when they were doing their "Spring Cleaning"

The Carriers are there so when they drop the hammer on Iran they can  set them back at least 10-15 years... I am not talking Nukes either...They would decimate every aspect of their economy and industry...

[jonseyhay]

Apparently, it was an Easter gift to the British people.    Have a look on the bottom of page one, (this thread) you will find the link there.

[peg_688]

Apparently, it was an Easter gift to the British people.    Have a look on the bottom of page one, (this thread) you will find the link there.

Oh ya he did it because of the Easter bunny I saw that , I don't beleive it had anything to do with Easter nor his good will toward the British people , just MO.

Maybe those IDF guys that got taken way back when that started the last lil skirmish in the M.E. will be rerleased as a Easter gift.  Or at least thier body's given back.  

[glenn-k]

What is your take on this, PEG?  

Seems our own people say our carriers are defenseless.  Seems like bush is putting a lot of our people in danger.  Not that they don't have time to make a good effort as I'm sure they will do their best and destroy a lot of Iran.  It's just that other technology that Iran seems to possess has surpassed our old carrier technology and our leaders are unable to do anything about it so far.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20070323/pl_bloomberg/ako7y_orw538

[peg_688]

What is your take on this, PEG?  

Seems our own people say our carriers are defenseless.  Seems like bush is putting a lot of our people in danger.  Not that they don't have time to make a good effort as I'm sure they will do their best and destroy a lot of Iran.  It's just that other technology that Iran seems to possess has surpassed our old carrier technology and our leaders are unable to do anything about it so far.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20070323/pl_bloomberg/ako7y_orw538

What my take on it is , is it a tested missle ?? Do the Iranians have subs , that are mission capable to launch said missles???

If so , our subs, the fast attacks , anti sub , subs in other words , should be able to take and old noisy diesel boats out pryor to there launch of said missles.

Of course this would have to be after one , or more , if they have more than one missle platform , has fired and destroyed a carrier. Assuming they do a muliple "first strike " offensive, that is .

Once that happens the life span on  "ANY SUB " not squaking the right freq. or emmitting the wrong sonar sounds would be taken out.

The weak link to carrier defence is sub's , our sub's protect our ships by hunting the other guys sub's .  

This new sub / airborne threat may have to be destroyed pre launch, the article does not mention any other way to fire it, or I missed it if it did, carriers also have A/C on alert depending on precieved threats , those A/C would also be players in destroying said missle either with another missle's or by the utlmate sacrifice.

So thats a lil of what my take is .

We could also follow the money of the dudes mentioned / quoted  in the article.     

[glenn-k]

Yep - always gotta consider the money angle.

[benevolance]

Well

Iran has no real Navy....Certianly not advanced submarines. I cannot believe that the Missile cannot be adapted to fire from land...

Considering that the Gulf is small and the Carriers would be in sight from Iran So distance is not an issue

The only way to neutralize this sort of threat is to attack without provocation...Meaning just invade

Which if the rest of the world does not agree to under UN terms...means they are committing acts of terrorism on Iran

I say this only because if a weapons facility or any kind of factory was attacked tomorrow in the USA we would call it an act of terrorism

And no matter how you spin this ...Attacking without provocation would be preventing Iran from defending themselves.

This sizzler missile if owned by iran would only have limited range and be a defensive weapon as they do not have nuclear submarines.

This would copy the pattern of attack of Iraq.... Bomb the shit out of the radar and missile defense systems all over the borders...So there would be no resistance to the invasion.

Iran has a lot more defensive capabilities than Iraq....So America would love to get a chance to pre - emptively go ahead and wipe out as much as possible... before declaring war.... which at that point would not be much of a war....As they could not defend themselves....So a slaughter

[peg_688]

Rarely when onboard a carrier do you see land ,  I guess we could park one a 1/2 mile off shore so they could throw rocks , or that sizzle missle at one   so we could do that preemtive strike we apparentally are so well known for.  

Sorry this last lil sabor rattle didn't go your way Peter. It all worked out without conflict , the carriers didn't shoot the crap outta Iran , ete etc.

Over and out of this thread , ROGER BALL

[Amanda_931]

Have we actually declared a war since WWII?  (I wondered and then looked it up)

Answer--Not formally, but goodness knows we've been in plenty of actions that congress hasn't prohibited (and has allowed money to be spent on), both before and after WWII, including Paraguay in 1859.  And some things that don't quite fall under either category, like troops in Korea in 1870 or some pretty bloody years in the Philipines in the early part of the last century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States

[Leo]

Historically religious wars last a long ,long time.

[glenn-k]

So do  oil, big business, global domination and power wars.

[benevolance]

peg

I dunno about the rattling of the saber....I do know that when Some of the Iranians diplomats and translators were released and acces was granted to 5 more that were taken by the Americans in Iraq....Then Iran almost instantly did a 180 and said the release of the British navy officers would happen... 2 days later they were all released without incident

There is no point to make with the aircraft carriers...Iran has little to no navy.....It is known how many carriers the USA has and their capability of war....So Iran already knows what can be done or would be done if a war started...

They need to only look back a couple of years to see how the Iraq situation played out... Sending the Carriers to the gulf in my mind is more of the USA wanting an excuse to invade...And having maximum firepower there to invade should they somehow figure out a way to destroy Iran without facing sanctions from the rest of the world.

With Iraq America had the false documents that Hussein had Nukes...He had WMD...He was behind 9-11...etc....Sadaam  killed those that resisted his rule with Chemical weapons 20 years ago....He was a and man that was not liked by the rest of the world...Iraq had taken Kuwait a in the 90's and that pissed a lot of the world off.

Iran does not go around pissing the rest of the world off... America dislikes anyone that defies American influence in the middle east...Israel dislikes anyone that does not agree that they should push the Palestinians in Gaza into the sea and Push the Palestinians in the west bank into Jordan and take all the land for themselves.

But nobody  else wants war with Iran...Save Bush and company

If tomorrow The USA dropped bombs on Iran there would be many countries all over the world that would be calling it unjustified and want America sanctioned and brought to justice as criminals of war....For an illegal invasion

[peg_688]

peg

#1: I dunno about the rattling of the saber....

#2: I do know that when Some of the Iranians diplomats and translators were released and acces was granted to 5 more that were taken by the Americans in Iraq....Then Iran almost instantly did a 180 and said the release of the

 #3: British navy officers would happen... 2 days later they were all released without incident

#4: There is no point to make with the aircraft carriers...Iran has little to no navy.....It is known how many carriers the USA has and their capability of war....So Iran already knows what can be done or would be done if a war started...

#5: They need to only look back a couple of years to see how the Iraq situation played out... Sending the Carriers to the gulf in my mind is more of the USA wanting an excuse to invade...And having maximum firepower there to invade should they somehow figure out a way to destroy Iran without facing sanctions from the rest of the world.

#6: With Iraq America had the false documents that Hussein had Nukes...He had WMD...He was behind 9-11...etc....Sadaam  killed those that resisted his rule with Chemical weapons 20 years ago....He was a and man that was not liked by the rest of the world...Iraq had taken Kuwait a in the 90's and that pissed a lot of the world off.

#7: Iran does not go around pissing the rest of the world off... America dislikes anyone that defies American influence in the middle east...Israel dislikes anyone that does not agree that they should push the Palestinians in Gaza into the sea and Push the Palestinians in the west bank into Jordan and take all the land for themselves.

#8: But nobody  else wants war with Iran...Save Bush and company

#9: If tomorrow The USA dropped bombs on Iran there would be many countries all over the world that would be calling it unjustified and want America sanctioned and brought to justice as criminals of war....For an illegal invasion

Ok Peter , you think / know the  USA  is a war mongering nation , or so it seems.

#1: I see results , you don't. I see a connection to the release , you don't.

#2: Way do you think those Iranians where in Iraq?? Selling cookies ??

#3: There was only one officier in the group , the rest where enlisted. Not that that matters , but it is a fact.

#4: The carriers are to "Project the power of the President of the United States" , we haven't had a naval battle in 50 years , they can project that power on  land or at sea. They are a tool , like a Skilsaw , they can convince the unconvinceable. Saddam wasn't convinced  , big mistake on his part I'd say , YMMV.

#5: There was no invasion , carriers are ready and can project that power better than any conventional weapon the US has. The shrub just broke out the right tool for the job, IMO , again YMMV.

#6: Yes not finding those weapons was a mistake either in not getting to them in time , or by us , US , making it up . Where his cem weapons when is also a issue , I think Syria , but I have no proof , or they are still burried in some sand hill.

You do have me on this one , so I say yup without those weapons we US have really srewed the pooch, but the world , IMO is better off without ole Saddum , he was pretty dumb to push it to the limit with the weapons inspector if you ask me , which you didn't , but thats my .02 cents on it.

#7: Well Israel isn't to happy Iran is processing  weaps grade plutoium , but hey they're just Jews so they are the ones who should be driven into the sea. Right?? And I don't believe you can show where any Jewish politcal lead has expressed that stance , but I know I can show  a few Arab's leaders who have.

#8: I don't think Bush wants a war with Iran any more than I do , but he does want them to lay off the weapons grade stuff , as do I. But then again that's just my opinion , YMMV.

#9: Tomorrow's another day Peter , but yes your right IF  the USA tomorrow attacked Iran it wouldn't be recieved very well. Excellent observation!

 I'm a little surprised no one asked what ROGER BALL meant / means , but thats the way the cookie crumbies some times

Hope your Easter has been peaceful            

[glenn-k]

I'll bite on the Roger Ball PEG -- I see he is a retired USN fighter pilot with 800 carrier landings.  What else?  

[peg_688]

I'll bite on the Roger Ball PEG -- I see he is a retired USN fighter pilot with 800 carrier landings.  What else?  

Well Roger Ball [highlight]IF [/highlight]he where a person would have millions of traps (arrested landings )

It's what the pilot says when he has aquired the "Ball" , the fresnel lens ,
from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier




  Landing systems

 
Another British invention was the glide-slope indicator (also known as a "meatball"). This was a gyroscopically-controlled lamp (which used a Fresnel lens) on the port side of the deck which could be seen by the aviator who was about to land, indicating to him whether he was too high or too low in relation to the desired glidepath. It also took into account the effect of the waves on the flight deck. The device became a necessity as the landing speed of aircraft increased.

So every landing as the A/C and crew make the turn and he or she aquires / sees the meatball / indicator lights they acknowlegde that by saying "Roger,  ball". Then the LSO knows he's not just winging it.

One of my young , then airmen (E-3 ) /  workers , now a E-8 (Senior Chief) used to call the TV/ plat camera , <the TV we had in our shop on the ship which was to [highlight]be at all time [/highlight] ::)tuned to the plat camera channel > , flightdeck film , so if the volume was turned up and we / the ship was in flt. ops. (flight operations ) ever 45 seconds or so you hear "Roger , ball!" so he called it "The Roger Ball show!" Quite funny / interesting Larry came up with that


So they "fly the ball" ya the same , almost as AOA system except the ship is moving so it's AOA plus ball , plus a few hundred other things that gets them  back to the ship.

Your a pilot so that oughta make sence to you.

[glenn-k]

Yup that makes sense. I actually did find the Roger Ball guy in a search though.  He only had 800 landings though.

[peg_688]

Yup that makes sense. I actually did find the Roger Ball guy in a search though.  He only had 800 landings though.

I thought you where kidding so there is a Roger Ball , wonder if he had any TV offers while on CV's  

It woulda been a big hit , everyone was watching , whether they wanted to or not  

[glenn-k]

Yup --- http://www.blogger.com/profile/11051821

[glenn-k]

Here's his blog.  http://threewire.blogspot.com/

[benevolance]

Peg

Well as for the weapons stuff in Iraq...

It goes back to the lincoln quote...You can fool some of the people all the time ..All of the people some of the time...

Well Bush and Cheney tried to use made up intelligence reports about Iraq... The Fuel Cells that were supposed to be missile silos? remember the duct tape mini airplane...That was the spy cam tech that they developed....Laughable things..

The rest of the world was not buying it...They were saying "ummm, this does not make sense, you have no real proof of anything"

So you cannot fool all the people all the time.

I know you dislike the UN...But just before Iraq was invaded...Saddam had allowed the UN to go wherever they wanted for an extended time...They had teams of inspectors equipped with helicopters using machinery that could detect a used chemical weapon shell that was 20 years old.... a couple grains of sand that were exposed to a chemical site would show up...

Lets be clear about a few things.... almost half of Iraqi air space was controlled by the USA and it was never relinquished since the early 90's...So they have had an air embargo on Iraq for 15 years...

Despite Saddam complying with the list of demands after the gulf war the sanctions were never relinquished...

When they did invade Iraq and they found their supposed chemical weapons...It was a massive pile of chemical weapons that were destroyed just as Sadaam said they were...And all the found were the spent shells and a few remains of destroyed weapons.

Sadaam kept saying that they destroyed the weapons and the factories....And to this day they have not found the capability in Iraq to make more Chemical weapons....

The Whole Debacle of Saddam having Nukes from Sudan... It was a forgery that  the rest of the world picked up on almost immediately....

What I am trying to show you is that there was no reason to invade Iraq except that Bush and Company wanted to invade Iraq.... It was a way to get re-elected...Haliburton would make billions...(we know who owns a huge part of that company)

What irks me the most is that The whole international community was saying over and over that Iraq was making a strong effort to co-operate with the UN and inspectors...I think the UN nuke watchdog gave them a A- grade for participation and co-operation...

As for the claims that all the Nukes and chem weapons went to Syria...

This is foolish to even try to defend....They cannot transport chem weapons and equipment without leaving a trail behind....And that is easily detected ...A microscopic trail can be detected...

Also they have satellite capability to monitor and photograph from space any movement along the Iraq Syrian Border...If there was a convoy of weapons leaving Iraq they would have proof concrete proof....They have nothing because  it did not happen....There has been nothing there for years to hide conceal or smuggle out of the country

If this was the case at all USA would be pointing their guns ships and planes to Syria...

Bush lost control of the House and Senate...Because the country learned that the Iraq war was a lie....They see it was not necessary for american freedom....And they spoke decisively against the Republican party last fall in the Mid Term Elections...

If the Republicans had any evidence that would stand up to scrutiny that Saddam had weapons...Nukes chems...Whatever...We would see it.

If there was a definate link to Saddam and 9-11 We would have seen it. Or Al Quieda... etc...

Lowest approval ratings ever... Grounds for impeachment... These have been the results here in america for Bush invading Iraq...


Peg I do not want to be right on the Iraq issue.... I want the people that died needlessly for this war to be alive with their families.

I think it is the greatest honour and sacrifice to defend your country and to fight for it's cause.

I also think it is a burden of the utmost importance upon government to protect the lives of the men and women who would die for this country.

Bush and company did not do that....They sent brave soldiers to die for the wrong reasons... This is why they are to be abhorred....This is why they should be in chains.

What I still cannot understand is why the whole nation is not rising up against Bush to demand that he be punished for the needless death of American troops in Iraq

When we have proof that the documentation they presented to the world was a lie

Onto Israel next post

[benevolance]

Peg

The thing about Israel is that they call out for the condemnation if Iran or Syria or even palestinian governments....They want the international community to put pressure on these groups because they show agression against Israel

Well the problem with this is that Israeli law is a direct violation of International law.... You see you cannot settle occupied territory under international law.

Israel re-wrote their constitution to say it was okay... In their constitution it is illegal to live in the Golan Heights if you are not Jewish

Just imagine something like that in America.... You are not allowed to live at the country club unless you are white... or Catholic...etc....

Israel has not abided by or  stopped expanding their borders.... Each and every day Israel takes more and more of the disputed lands and settles it...They are putting up barricades and fences...

Check out amnesty international or the Red Cross...Both pretty humane web sites....Guess who sits at the top of human right violations on their lists year after year after year.....Yes Israel.... They attack palestinian settlers in the west bank and in Gaza on purpose so if they throw a rock back they can shoot them burn them out and add their lands to Israeli lands...

Peg this is much worse than the Nazi invasion....Not in Brutality...But this has been going on non stop for over 60 years....The Palestinians are living in Refugee camps...Unspeakable conditions...No water food...Living in their own filth (sewage story from last week??)

Not a isolated group either Millions and millions of Displaced Palestinians living in refugee camps...And like I said this has been going on for 60 + years....

So when Fatah or Hames get angry and lash out against the Zionists we should be able to understand why...

This problem was Started when Britain and the USA decided to put the Jews back in Israel....So they could have someone there who would expand their influence in the region...

As for Iran and Nukes...Israel has Nukes and refuses to speak with the UN about their weapons programs...They refuse to allow inspections... yet there are no sanctions or impending invasions of Israel by the entire world...

A month ago Iran Said that they would dismantle and destroy every part and piece of any weapon program if the USA would stop building new nukes and enriching weapon grade Uranium and Plutonium... That was not even responded to... .Which makes the USA look like Hippocrits.. They are building more advanced nukes with 10 times the ability for devastation and they are chastising the rest of the world for developing nuclear technology

Back to Israel.... It is a total mess over there...The problem is the Jews became hippocrits when they put the People living in what is now Israel to the Sword and took the land... The whole world suffered in WW2...And the world saw the Jewish people get brutalized.... But what the Jewish people have done to the Palestinians  is very much like what the Germans did to the Jews

The only thing missing is the Gas Chamber

So while Israel does not make statements to the press...Death to the Arabs...Their laws...Actions and the history in that region for the last 60 years definately proves what their intentions truly are...