Tales of the tape--measuring and cutting woes

[MikeT]

I thought I would pass along my recent (semi-frustrating) experiences and a follow-up story:

This weekend I was nailing some final edge blocking before my shearwall inspection.  I had thought I measured the distance between each stud reasonably carefully and used a chopsaw to cut my blocks.  But then when I went to nail them into place, I was invariably off by an annoying bit--at first an 1/8th to a 1/4 too long, and then the same amount too short.  What in the world was going wrong?  I puzzled, cussed, and pondered (not necessarily in that order).  Measured twice, cut once--blah, blah, blah.  Then on my way home, I figured it out (I think).  It was a combination of a number of things:

1. I suck at this (but I gotta get past this one).
2. I was using one tape to measure the stud bay and another to measure and cut the blocking.  If the two tapes were off by a bit and if I was pulling one measurement (on the blocking) and not on the other (pushing the end between the stud bay), the I could reasonably get a variance between the two measurements.
3. I was not consistent in what the side of the kerf I was using.

I was at work yesterday and talking with some of the construction crew that is working on a new interior space for our college.  As I was mentioning my experience with the measuring and cutting to the foreman, he told me of his experience working on a major project at Nike's world campus here in town.  He said that there were over 100 carpenters on the project.  Each carpenter had to check his tape measure against a master 5 foot tape that they had on the job site.  If the carpenter's tape was off more than 1/16th of an inch, they had to leave that tape out of the job site. 

So when I transition from my rough stage to the finish stage, I hope I will be more careful and try and minimize my error rate.

Just thought I would share my learning experiences.

mt

[peternap]

Don't worry, it comes with experience.  At least you're smart enough to know what a 16th is. I've had cutters working for me that you had to give the measurements in inches, big lines and little lines.

Then to get a tight fit (32ends) it's either cut the line or leave the line.

[considerations]

Great topic.  Here's my question.  I've got a Skilsaw, handy item, however:

When I cut a 2x, things are great, but when I cut a 4x, I have to make 2 cuts, make a cut, turn the piece over and cut from the other side. 

I line up on the marks I've made and the little notch in the foot on the saw, but always, always, the two cuts are off, maybe 1/16, maybe less, but the end of the piece is not FLAT.

Why??

Nope, no chop saw in my forseeable future.

[peternap]

Use your try square to mark all around and make sure they meet at the beginning.

Make sure your blade is 90 degrees to the shoe and use a square, not the marks on the shoe.

Carefully vut one line, I cut by holding the guard up and watching the outside of the blade instead of using the guide...but everyone cuts differently.

Turn the 4X4 one face over and continue your cut, turn once more and continue the cut.

If your blade is square and your lines are square and you start your cut square, it might be a good cut

[considerations]

I suppose that should have been common sense, but it wasn't for me, especially the part about using a square to set the blade... 

I'll follow the guidance, I bet it gets me a better result.

Thank you.

[Daddymem]

That speed square is your friend.  As described, I place the shoe against the square held against the wood, hold the guide open and watch the outside edge of the blade.  Eventually you get to a point that you can whiz through a board nice and straight on a line drawn with the square then you get even better and with nothing but a tick mark you get a nice straight cut. 

When we built our house, I used the square for all my cuts but then the shoe got bent when the saw fall.  From then on, I used the square for lines and eyeballed the saw watching the outside edge zip along the line.

[TheWire]

Its not always practical to do so, but when I can I like to hold the piece to be cut directly to the space its supposed to fit then mark it directly.  That reduces the chance of measuring and tape measure inside vs outside errors.  Also as mentioned, keeping track of where the saw cuts in relation to the mark is important also.

[Okie_Bob]

Peter, being the novice that I am, I saw your response above and noted the way you spelled 'try' square and thought that was wrong. I have always thought it was a 'tri' square...I know, picky, picky, picky. But, I just like to feel confident when referring to something.
Anyway, I did a Google search on 'tri-square' and got an amazing number of hits and chose to check out the one from Ace Hardware.
Turns out there is a 'tri-square', a 'mitre-tri-square' and a 'try square' (which looks exactly like a 'mitre-tri-square'.
For most applications, I prefer the old speed square but, at least I now know the difference between a 'tri' and 'try' square. Sorry for even considering the possiblitly you might have been incorrect!
Okie Bob
(I understand this is a 'little known and less cared about bit of trivia' but, I had to throw it out there.)

[Redoverfarm]

OK someone out tell try to explain whay there is play at the end of a tape.  Yes notice that it will give in both directions ( pulled or pushed) My BIL gave me an explanation once but forgot what he said.  I do know that this will cause a difference in measurements especially when measuring between rafters or studs for blocks.  You push the tape against one and measure at the other.  Then when you transfer that measurement to the saw you hang your tape at one end of the block and pull and mark your board.  I often use a folding rule for percise measurements at closer distances rather then the sliding tape.

[ScottA]

The play allows for the thickness of the tang at the end of the blade.

[glenn kangiser]

Peter, being the novice that I am, I saw your response above and noted the way you spelled 'try' square and thought that was wrong. I have always thought it was a 'tri' square...I know, picky, picky, picky. But, I just like to feel confident when referring to something.
Anyway, I did a Google search on 'tri-square' and got an amazing number of hits and chose to check out the one from Ace Hardware.
Turns out there is a 'tri-square', a 'mitre-tri-square' and a 'try square' (which looks exactly like a 'mitre-tri-square'.
For most applications, I prefer the old speed square but, at least I now know the difference between a 'tri' and 'try' square. Sorry for even considering the possiblitly you might have been incorrect!
Okie Bob
(I understand this is a 'little known and less cared about bit of trivia' but, I had to throw it out there.)

Dang BoB - you mean I'm not spose to eyeball everything? hmm

[Daddymem]

If the tape end is pulled against something the actual measurement is from the inside of the end to your distance, if you push against something the measurement is from the outside of the end to your distance.  The play should be the thickness of the end piece itself.  A way to check is to pick a distance, pull that distance on a piece of wood, make a mark, then push the wood against a wall and push the distance and the marks should be the same.  This is why cheapo tape measures are worth what you pay, they have too much play in the end.  Get a Stanley FAT MAX and be done with it.  PEG could probably give us a class on this I bet.

[glenn kangiser]

I bought the Fat Max, Daddymem.

It lasted about two weeks and I broke the end off it walking by something...it hooked on it 

I guess I just wasn't meant to have a good tape.      [ouch]

[Sassy]

I bought the Fat Max, Daddymem.

It lasted about two weeks and I broke the end off it walking by something...it hooked on it 

I guess I just wasn't meant to have a good tape.      [ouch]

Besides, if it is too long to fit in a space, Glenn just gets a big hammer & pounds it in, if it is too short, he gets his nailgun & shoots a bunch of nails in to tighten things up 

[Daddymem]

Mine lasted until just about the last month of building our house then I got a crack in the tape somehow so it didn't roll all the way up inside properly anymore.  I guarantee any other tape wouldn't have lasted half as long in these hack amateur hands, but then again I'm not a troglodyte (or a welder). 

[Redoverfarm]

I also tried the "fat max and it lasted about 6 months until it split longways in the middle of the tape about 5' from the end.  Went to an auction and bouth 4 33' cheapo's with magnetic belt clip. On the second one now but I consider them disposable.

[considerations]

Peter, being the novice that I am, I saw your response above and noted the way you spelled 'try' square and thought that was wrong. I have always thought it was a 'tri' square...

In the hands of this novice, it a Try (2b) square.   

[glenn kangiser]

Won't close work?   OH OH --hope PEG's not looking.

I had to just go for the $3.00 or so tapes  and consider them disposable too.

Mine won't stick out as far as Daddymem's though.

[Redoverfarm]

With all due respect I just wonder how many houses and barns were built with the little mark after the big one or two three little marks after the large mark.  I would say Pegg is ashamed of us.

[glenn kangiser]

I recently worked with another contractor on a steel job. They were two friends from Kansas and the new guy was a local that couldn't read the tape -- they thought he was kidding when he started the little line next to the big one routine.  What do they say in Virginia?  They walk among us?

[PEG688]

  I would say Pegg is ashamed of us.

Nah your all at least talking about how to improve. I'd say that measures up to a positive   

I use and swear by Stanley  1" x 25' tapes , the Fat max is just that, TO FAT, to fit in the spot/ pocket  designed for the tape.

     

If you watch for them on sale they can be had for under $15.00.

[Daddymem]

I've dumped so many broken ones of those things in the bottom of perc holes, the rollup mechanism sucks in them it even sees sand and it clogs up.  My Fat Max was only $15, sure wouldn't pay $15 for the normal.  And it is silver, can't make notes on the silver like you can the yellow. Front right pouch fits it just fine.

[Daddymem]

I just checked the tape I've had the longest.  It's a Stanley LeverLock 26' I picked up at a discount store.  The case is plastic so it is in good shape, the tape is rusty.  I've had it clog up open so I've washed it several times by dunking it in water, unraveling to the end and reloading it through a towel to get it mostly dry.  I've had that one for about 6 years now and it still is kicking.  The other one I've had for 2 years is...surprisingly...the Stanley like above, must have finally gotten a good one.  Mommymem's Big Johnson wasn't too bad of a tape either, nowhere near the breakpoint length of the FatMax which is where they really shine, but it lasted the construction.  I like the rubberized end.  The locking mechanism is a rocker push type and it is a little bit worn and that's it.  I think it was $6-8.  Gotta watch those Amazon sales and buy when low BEFORE you need the tool.

[peternap]

Oakiebob Never figured out the spelling either. It's one of those things I just accept.

Redover, the play in the tape (which gets worse if the tape doesn't break) is the reason I still use an old fashioned folding wooden rule with brass extension, on all the shorter stuff. It's an amazing invention, no slop at the end, use as a gauge for angles, use the extension as a marking gauge, back scratcher, etc.

[Redoverfarm]

I started collecting an odd wooden rules.  I am sure Pegg has seen them but not sure anyone else has.  I bought both at estate auctions in a grab box.  One is a "Raybone" made in england, # 1190, Boxwood.  Neatest tool.  It is 36" when fully extended.  It pivots in the center for a protractor. When partially closed it is two sided 18". Then it pivots the opposite direction to close up to 9".  When fully extended it has a brass level embedded.  If I thought I could get close enough to take a picture I would.

I also have one that is made on the same principle but it is a Stanley # 68 that operates on the same principle but only extends to 24" without the protractor or the level.  When closed all the way it is only 6" long. USA version of a better product I guess.