20 X 36 1 1/2 story in north Georgia

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Christina, it is absolutely beautiful.  Love it.  What is the total interior square footage going to be?  Love it love it love it.

[CWhite]

Hi and thanks Homegrown,
The downstairs and upstairs measure 20 X 36 feet so that's 1440 square feet, and then the bedroom add on measures 14 X 16 feet and that is 224 so total is 1664 square feet.  I'm not including the little attic room over the bedroom as we're not going to finish that for use, only for storage. 

This is not just a weekend retreat for us, it is our home and hopefully for quite awhile.  I have 2 kids of my own who are grown and one who I took in, and of course the extra extended family that comes along with them.  The entire upstairs will be devoted to guest acommodations for them with box beds built in and one big bathroom with the claw foot tub in it.  It will be more like a hostel than private. 

It is actually a much bigger house than we started off designing.  Our main/ground floor living space totals 944 square feet, and that's what we'll really be living in. 

Thanks again for looking.
Christina

[CWhite]

This is what I do when I'm not building a house.


Happy Holidays however you celebrate the season.
Christina

[CWhite]

Building inspector nightmare going on....
I was hoping to get "passed" on the framing, plumbing, gas lines, all roughed in  yesterday.  The inspectors were back there for quite awhile, so I figured I would go distract them and talk about how pretty the house was so they might quit nitpicking over details like I feared them might be doing. 

Well, I got back there, and the two inspectors had worked themselves up into a frenzie finding "serious" problems with my house. 

First, the smaller of the two really BIG things is that they want all of the gas lines run with hard pipe instead of that stuff with the yellow rubber stuff around it....ok, that they explained well enough.  The 3 inch mandatory clearance cannot be achieved in a 2X4 construction...."not installed correctly".

Second, and this is the BIGGIE.  They want the entire roof removed and tar paper laid down under it between the rafters and the tin.   Now, that is just weird.  They don't want decking, just the tar paper. 
They say it  needs a vapor barier.  Now, I stayed calm and asked them for the documentation of the code that applies so I can show it to my builder, and he can use it to get the roofer to correct the problem....
They produced a paper for everything but metal roofing, and it all refered to pitches of greater than  2 units to 12 units, up to 4 units to 12 units.  The pitch on my roof is 12 units to 12 units.  I think this might be my saving grace, but they insisted they would get the papers proving their correct assessment. 

So, has anyone experienced this? 
Now, remember, I am in the south, so the insulation factors are not the same here. 
I'm also hoping that we can put baffles underneith the tin, and then perhaps use insulation under it that will become a moisture barrier...like that blown in gluey type insulation. 

I can get away with this if I get the manufacturer's specs and an engineer to sign off on the was we have done it. The roofer says it is done correctly now. 

Any help out there?
Christina

[glenn kangiser]

I would get the info on the installation from the roofer and or get your engineer to sign it as correct.  That should supersede the bozos.

I would quit playing with the bozos in the field - get pretty ticked off and go to the head of the building department and complain about them.

How successful you will be depends on the quality of the higher ups, but it often works around here to a point.  No guarantees.

[cbc58]

The roofer should be talking to the inspector also.  If you hired the roofer to install the roof and they didn't do it right....... that is thier fault.  You want it done right no matter what because it will be worse in the long run if there is a moisture problem.    Same goes for the gas....... that's a safety issue IMHO.

[glenn kangiser]

That is a good idea also.

[Robert_Flowers]

Christina the house looks great,i know Building inspectors can be a pain in the backside,they know they have builders over a barrel and most use the power,it make them feel like a god  .
 

I would quit playing with the bozos in the field - get pretty ticked off and go to the head of the building department and complain about them.

Glen
Be careful i'm in middle Georgia, (Twiggs county) and the inspector is the head of the buliding department,you may need to go to planning and zoning.



Robert

[CWhite]

I'm afraid the inspectors are playing GOD.  Their demeanor was like watching an old married couple going off on something they both had a distaste for while they were incredibly constipated.  I nodded a lot and asked very clear, not-to-be-misinterpreted-as-cocky questions while they just kept going on and on about how they were saving me for my own good. 

They did think the house was pretty, by the way..

My builder is a gem, and I fully expect him to be able to work this out one way or the other.  That's what his 20% is for and I do trust him. 

What I do need to find is the international code  (that's what they said this county uses) for metal roof installation.  I don't have the book, my builder does, and I would like to see how it reads..  I want to know if pitch has been misinterpreted by these inspectors to include all pitches instead of under 4 / 12.   

My husband is Italian, and it's times like this that we're glad I'm the straw boss.  He would be handling this a bit differently.  I'm thinking this will work it's way out eventually, but probably be a setback both time wise and financially....I just hope not too much of either.

Any body out there have a copy of the code book?

Thanks,
Christina

[williet]

Get your documentation together and get an attorney to write a letter to the inspector and his boss, whoever that is in your area.

The letter head alone will, in most cases, subdue the "god" complex of these folks. It's a shame some people in "government" have just gotta be jerks....BUT that seems to be the way it is.

It'sa really great house...good luck with the red tape.

[MountainDon]

If by code book you mean the IRC 2003 (International Residential Code 2003), then go here and follow the link near the top

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2590.0

[MountainDon]

I was too curious to let this go, and besides I'd finished cleaning up some more of the office so I had a further look at the IRC 2003. See Chapter 9,  specific metal panel roof is section R905.10     Nothing right there about underlayment (building felt, synthetics, etc.   Remember this is from the IRC 2003. There could be differences in other years.

The interesting thing is that reading about the requirements for other roofing, like asphalt shingles, slate shingles, metal shingles, wood shingles, etc. there is a listed requirement for underlayment, in two different slope categories, from 2 to 4 in 12 [two layers underlayment] and 4 in 12 and greater [one layer]. All these other roofing types require an underlayment. BUT, in that section on metal roof panels there is no mention of underlayment being required at all. 

The only things mentioned are for slopes; roofs with nonsoldered joints, and unsealed laps shall be limited to slopes of 3 to 12 or greater, roofs using sealed laps can be used with slope as low as 1/2 in 12.   And of course the material must meet certain ASTM standards and be installed with approved fasteners in the manner prescribed by the panel manufacturer. Oh the only other requirement mentioned is that the roof panels be installed over solid or spaced sheathing OR spaced supports if the panels are designed for that method.

So to me at least, it would seem those inspectors are loosely acquainted with the code requirements and are misapplying what they think they know.  Unless they have a different code book?       

Or I could be missing something. Has happened before.

[PEG688]

On this roof issue , is the metal laid right on the rafters ? Or is it on purlins? Or laid on roof sheathing??


IMO in all but true barn / outbuilding , or better yet buildings with out heat in them , you NEED the felt or a ice and water shield barrier between the under side of the metal and ANY wood .

  Sure a pole barn , outhouse , covered porch you could go without as there's either no heat source (condensation makers ) or there lots of moving air to stop a dew point from making it rain inside the building.

We ALWAYS lay felt under the metal roofing, the stuff sweats , sun hits the top heating it bottom is cooler either in the attic or ceiling area and  a dew point is setup , condensation happens .


I'm not sure how you'd install most metal roofing directly on rafters , purlins I can see that BUT rafters , can't see how you'd do that RIGHT , although I'm sure it CAN be done , just not done right!


As always G/L PEG

  In this case , and of course a lot of things are not known about the whole situation , the inspector's May be right and may be saving your behind .   

[MountainDon]

BTW, how is this roof/attic going to be insulated?

[CWhite]

On this roof issue , is the metal laid right on the rafters ? Or is it on purlins? Or laid on roof sheathing??

The rafters have cross beams of 2 X 4's on top of them, I don't know if they are called purlins or not, and the metal roofing is screwed to them.

The way the roofers and insulation guys were going to do it, is to use that space between the metal roof and the fiberglass batting insulation as a baffle.  The moisture on the inside of the tin would naturally run down the tin instead of drip inside, especially at that pitch. 

I have gotten another opinion regarding the importance of NOT having the tar paper directly under the metal from a different contractor.  He said if you allow it to touch the tin, the condensation and dampness on the felt cannot escape and will rot the roof out from the underside, and drastically shorten the life of the tin. 

I do want the roof on correctly of course, but I sure don't want them to insist on something they have misinterpreted that will be a wrong move in the long run.  It's very hard to find t he correct answer when so many folks have opinions and "almost" make sense.   I have gotten more confused today instead of more clear on the subject.   

But, I'm not done  yet.   
Thanks for the input.
Christina

[CWhite]

BTW, how is this roof/attic going to be insulated?

We plan on using fiberglass batting and sheet rock on the ceilings upstairs. 
The rafters have so much room up there, we can get R30 in the roof. 
Christina

[PEG688]

The rafters have cross beams of 2 X 4's on top of them, I don't know if they are called purlins or not, and the metal roofing is screwed to them.


  Those would be called purlins and that part now make sense.

The way the roofers and insulation guys were going to do it, is to use that space between the metal roof and the fiberglass batting insulation as a baffle.  The moisture on the inside of the tin would naturally run down the tin instead of drip inside, especially at that pitch. 

  This part relies on the water caused by the dew point AWAYS doing what you want it to do, which would be to cling to the underside of the metal roofing and AWAYS dip b clear off the under side. I'd say that asking way to much of water irregardless of the pitch. 

I have gotten another opinion regarding the importance of NOT having the tar paper directly under the metal from a different contractor.  He said if you allow it to touch the tin, the condensation and dampness on the felt cannot escape and will rot the roof out from the underside, and drastically shorten the life of the tin.

The dew point is still the under  side of the metal the roof sheathing will not get wet IF the felt is laid right , you will still need proper venting in the attic space.   

I do want the roof on correctly of course, but I sure don't want them to insist on something they have misinterpreted that will be a wrong move in the long run.  It's very hard to find t he correct answer when so many folks have opinions and "almost" make sense.   I have gotten more confused today instead of more clear on the subject. 


  I understand your situation , and I hate to get involved with other people and other contractors in situations like this. Can they take you to other houses similar to yours and show you a attic done the way they are doing it that is say five or ten  years old? I have never heard of NOT  papering a metal roof  on a building intended to be lived in .   

But, I'm not done  yet.   
Thanks for the input.
Christina

  Good luck , do more local research , and in this case listen to what the inspectors are saying, maybe even hire a "home inspector" who checks houses in your area for real estate sales. 

[williet]

Peg,
I've not seen a modern house around here that wasn't decked with something. Metal roof or not? It would seem there needs to be something under the roofing, but I believe she said her contractor said it wasn't needed.....I saw in the pictures as they were building it and wondered about the purlins in a "modern" house?

[ScottA]

First, the smaller of the two really BIG things is that they want all of the gas lines run with hard pipe instead of that stuff with the yellow rubber stuff around it....ok, that they explained well enough.  The 3 inch mandatory clearance cannot be achieved in a 2X4 construction...."not installed correctly".

Are we talking about CSST (Corrigated Stainless Steel Tubing) here? What 3" mandatory clearance are you refering to? I run CSST gas pipe in 2x4 walls all the time. Tell me whats going on here and maybe I can give you an argument.

I have gotten another opinion regarding the importance of NOT having the tar paper directly under the metal from a different contractor.  He said if you allow it to touch the tin, the condensation and dampness on the felt cannot escape and will rot the roof out from the underside, and drastically shorten the life of the tin.

I put a metal roof on my house about 10 years ago and we where told not to put paper under the tin. But we where also told to put foam board under the tin. Which we did between the purlins. No air = no condensation is the idea I think.

[CWhite]

Are we talking about CSST (Corrigated Stainless Steel Tubing) here? What 3" mandatory clearance are you refering to? I run CSST gas pipe in 2x4 walls all the time. Tell me whats going on here and maybe I can give you an argument.

The gas pipe that was installed, and the inspectors are insisting be taken out is encased in a yellow rubber like substance with conduit type tubing inside it that must be a little flexible judging from how they put it in the walls.  The inspectors say it must have 3 inches of clearance, and I take it to mean from the exterior of the wall so that nails cannot be driven into it.  They told me horror stories about how sheetrock nails had been driven into it.  Also, they said it cannot be pulled through drilled holes without damaging the casing, and that it under no circumstances can go through the plate from the 1st floor to the second floor. 

I put a metal roof on my house about 10 years ago and we where told not to put paper under the tin. But we where also told to put foam board under the tin. Which we did between the purlins. No air = no condensation is the idea I think.

I have a chicken house that we use as an art gallery, so I am very familiar with the foam board insulation used under tin roofing.  We even built an 85 foot studio and used the same method to insulate, but it wasn't being inspected when it was built.  No leaks there, and the ones in the gallery are because the roof and building are so old and they need repair. 

I take it that you are saying your proposed method has been successful without felt under the tin?

Thanks for the input.
Christina

[ScottA]

http://www.gastite.com/engspecs.php?pg=plates&idlink=link4

If you look at the above link you'll see there are special plates made to protect the pipe where it passes through plates studs etc. These are code approved/required. If the pipe is left loose in the walls it will move out of the way of a nail being driven through sheetrock to say hang a picture or something. There are several brands of CSST on the market but they all are installed in basicly the same manner. If you contact the local rep they will usually go to bat for you against the building department so long as the pipe is installed per manufacture recomendation. If an installer is tearing the jacket while installing that is just bad workmanship IMO. It can be pulled through drilled holes if done correctly.

As for the metal roof. I'm not aware of any problems to date. We installed it based on the manufactures recomendations. YMMV 

[CWhite]

Another thought about the success of a tin roof put on this way is that there is naturally an airspace under the tin with about 1 1/2 " space for it to breath.  That space, being above the insulation, would not be heated, and therefore, would remain very similar to the outside temps.  Why would it create any more moisture or condensation that any barn roofed the same way that doesn't leak? 

I did not let the framers install the upstairs tongue and groove pine flooring until after the house was dried in so the floor would never have a chance of being rained on.  If they expect us to take the roof off, it becomes extremely vulnerable to weather.  This has consequences that the inspectors couldn't care less about. 

I honestly believe that the inspectors' getting their credentials from an online course on building codes could seriously affect my budget and my time schedule. 

My builder has not had time to regroup and explain his next move yet, so I will be sitting on pins and needles until after the holiday. 
Christina

[PEG688]

  #1: Another thought about the success of a tin roof put on this way is that there is naturally an airspace under the tin with about 1 1/2 " space for it to breath.  That space, being above the insulation, would not be heated, and therefore, would remain very similar to the outside temps.  Why would it create any more moisture or condensation that any barn roofed the same way that doesn't leak? 


  #2:I honestly believe that the inspectors' getting their credentials from an online course on building codes could seriously affect my budget and my time schedule. 

  #3:My builder has not had time to regroup and explain his next move yet, so I will be sitting on pins and needles until after the holiday. 

Here's how I see it

   #1:  a) Yes you have that space BUT ever sunny day that space will be cool , the sun will rise and that metal on one side will get hot , the air space will not get as hot as fast. Potential dew point.

      b) Sun will set that air space will be very hot the metal will cool VERY  fast , the air space will cool slowly . Potential dew point .

  #2: So your local inspectors are new / just learning ?

Now don't get me wrong I , like most pro builders,  pretty much have a vast contempt for pretty much ALL inspectors  Ya I'll admit it, I get paid to build , and I dislike ALL most all the inspectors . I shouldn't say dislike , I'll stick with contempt though


But IF your inspectors called you on this , or your builder , I really think the inspectors would have seen this before , metal roofs , are they that uncommon in your area? 

This is some what basic building practice up here in the PNW , felt  and / or ice and water shield under just about every type of roofing. Pole barns are the only type that does NOT get felt the metal is screwed to the purlins , GENERALLY a roll type insulation is put down first and the metal traps that between the purlins and the metal.

  Pole barns, here,  tend to sweat , the roofs , generally in a barn or shop this isn't a big deal . But in trapped attic space it would / will be.

I just can see this being "new ground" for your inspectors.

  #3: I hope he can drive you to a buildings with very similar situations , that are 5 or more years old and that you can get a good look at the underside of those roofs.


  BTW I went to school with a  Carmella White , no chance it's you is there?

G/L keep us posted , we all may learn something new here, lets hope anyway

[CWhite]

Hi and thanks for your thoughts on these set backs.
Scott, I have looked at that link and will show it to my builder. 
Pegg, I appreciate your input very much.  There is no telling how this will turn out at this point, but I'll keep you posted.
Mt.Don, it looks like you found the same sheet of codes that they tried to use to convince me of their correct assessment, but I could not see how it applied to my house.

Bottom line, I have a tense week ahead of me. 
Oh, and my name is Christina, not Carmella...I have spent my whole life in Georgia.
C 

[Willy]

""Second, and this is the BIGGIE.  They want the entire roof removed and tar paper laid down under it between the rafters and the tin.   Now, that is just weird.  They don't want decking, just the tar paper. 
They say it  needs a vapor barier.  Now, I stayed calm and asked them for the documentation of the code that applies so I can show it to my builder, and he can use it to get the roofer to correct the problem....
They produced a paper for everything but metal roofing, and it all refered to pitches of greater than  2 units to 12 units, up to 4 units to 12 units.  The pitch on my roof is 12 units to 12 units.  I think this might be my saving grace, but they insisted they would get the papers proving their correct assessment. 

So, has anyone experienced this? 
Now, remember, I am in the south, so the insulation factors are not the same here. 
I'm also hoping that we can put baffles underneith the tin, and then perhaps use insulation under it that will become a moisture barrier...like that blown in gluey type insulation."" 

Yes I have and beleive me they are right you need a vapor barrier. I have lived with, built, and been proved wrong with steel buildings. One of the first builbings I had built for me was a steel one. Now I got the inside roof insulated with the role type plactic coverd thin stuff but not the outside over hang I could park under. No way was I going to pay for insulation on a area outside of the building even tho they said I needed to. That roof dripped on my cars for years and when it was real cold it would drip water and it would make ice all over my vehicals form. If there is a difference of tempiture on the top and bottom it will form condinsation and drip. Just like on a glass of cold water it will bead up. Metal roofs are great for this but easy to correct to. My outside barn with open walls did not drip ever and all I did is put 1/8" foil coverd cardboard on the perlins to stop the wind/air from forming the water. I have never had a problem when I put the steel over plywood with water forming but I allways put felt down also. It was allways bare steel that would drip when temps and humidites were correct.  Just a litte tiny R-Factor is all you need to stop it and it needs to be against the steel underside. Mark