Self Sufficiency - What are we doing?

[peternap]

Unfortunately Don, It's nearly impossible to sustain yourself or your family by hunting alone.

our ancestors weren't primitives although it makes for good stories. They were very civilized and organized although they had to work with the technology at the time.

You have to raise something as a staple. Every part of the country will support something.

Trapping is a much more productive method of gathering food than hunting. I used to trap a lot. It gets more game and frees your time to do other work. Same with fishing. A few fish traps will get a lot of food.

I suspect the problems in this country will mirror the breakup of the Soviet Union. It's good to look at how the residents dealt with day to day life.

Also talk to the OLDER natives. They had to deal with the depression and are good for ideas on what your section of the country will grow.

Mountain areas are great for Turnips after you get the soil right. You may have to build raised beds but that's a labor of love. Turnips are nutritious, not very temperamental and  you can eat the green tops all summer and the roots after the first frost.

Don't start thinking that even a catastrophic breakup in this country means teh end of civilization. It may mean the end of HBO but you can continue to lead an enjoyable life....just different.

[MountainDon]

Unfortunately Don, It's nearly impossible to sustain yourself or your family by hunting alone.

I have no trouble believing that, Peter. Way back... there were hunter / gatherers. That was a tough way to make a living. The standard of living they enjoyed increased when they settled, stopped moving and grew crops. Plus, my hunting experience testifies that it is hard work.

Turnips

I'll have to look into that and other options for what would grow up there.

One thing I do have, that most don't, is a fairly comprehensive stock of emergency goods/foods/supplies. If the crap does hit the fan it gives some breathing room, time to sort things out. We use some of the supplies ourselves and replace them to keep things fresh. We cycle a lot through a local food bank and a homeless shelter kitchen with the same objective of maintaining freshness. It's also our main method of charitable contributions. We also have a home water storage system for emergency use.

The cabin in the mountains would be a retreat. I don't have my own water there yet; share a well with a neighbor. And there's a nearby year round spring, but that's on national forest property, but only a quarter mile over the fence.

[glenn kangiser]

peternap said:

I suspect the problems in this country will mirror the breakup of the Soviet Union. It's good to look at how the residents dealt with day to day life.

Interesting point there, Peter.  We helped set up the Soviet Union fighting Bin Laden and friends in Afghanistan.  The cost of a war we knew they couldn't win was so great it helped to destroy them. 

Now we are not only there, but in Iraq too, and wanting more. 

Yeah -- looks like history repeats itself - our people in office haven't learned anything from history so we are doomed to repeat it...  but maybe the New World Order folks directing the show want it that way.  They make money from all sides.

So meanwhile back at the ranch...  [idea]... it would be a good idea if we look out for ourselves.

[glenn kangiser]

The stored goods, staples, dry goods, are a good safety net, Don.  I mentioned to Sassy the other day we need to get beans - lentils etc.  Freezing the dry beans etc, is supposed to kill the bug eggs that are always in them, whether we like to think about it or not. :barf

We have a year round spring at the bottom of the hill - 1/2 gpm min usually, besides being off grid.

[MountainDon]

Freezing the dry beans etc, is supposed to kill the bug eggs that are always in them, whether we like to think about it or not.

And remember you can use dry ice as well. Put some on the top of the grain, beans, etc in the pail. Leave the lid loose and the CO₂ will sublime and displace the oxygen, etc from the pail. The cold also helps. Then seal the container.

I read somewhere that on average we unintentionally consume a pound of insects/insect matter in a year.

  Do insect fragments qualify as organic?

[MountainDon]

When we were having this house built I had several quirky things implemented. One was splitting the electrical wiring up so I could later easily use a generator for back up power on some selected circuits. That came in handy also when adding the grid tie solar.

Another odd thing was I had the plumbers make allowance for some water storage tanks. I had found some stainless steel tanks at a fixtures sale when a small dairy closed. Two tanks of 100 gallons each. The house water goes though one tank, then the other before being distributed through the regular piping. I've got a timer actuated sprinkler valve on each to bleed off and drain whatever crap might collect.

Peter, you mentioned getting the soil right for turnips. What do you mean, what should I look for?

[glenn kangiser]

Freezing the dry beans etc, is supposed to kill the bug eggs that are always in them, whether we like to think about it or not.

And remember you can use dry ice as well. Put some on the top of the grain, beans, etc in the pail. Leave the lid loose and the CO₂ will sublime and displace the oxygen, etc from the pail. The cold also helps. Then seal the container.

I read somewhere that on average we unintentionally consume a pound of insects/insect matter in a year.

  Do insect fragments qualify as organic?

We live near - and our other place is in the San Joaquin Valley.  It supplies food for much of the US and the world.  The giant commercial farmers don't have time or manpower to make sure that what we eat is bug/rodent/reptile free.  Instead they just have standards put out by our public servant, The USDA/FDA, and sometimes they may even monitor it.... occasionally.

Things like ketchup - soup - sauce -- doesn't matter -- it's all ground up and cooked together.  Wine -- rats, mice,

snakes -- everything, goes into the crusher, then is cleaned out during the filtering processes etc.  Ahh yes-- 1997 was a very good year.   [mouseno]

from Yahoo answers,
Insect legs in food?
i've heard that there are insect legs in certain foods, such as cereal and chocolate bars. what other disgusting things are in what other foods?

   
Mr. Why

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
You have heard correctly. What's more, did you know that most people in the US who are "allergic to chocolate" actually are not allergic to chocolate, but rather to cockroaches? Cockroach allergy is extremely common and, since there are cockroaches (and legs and excrement) in the cocoa beans used to make chocolate, people have allergic reactions to it. People who are "allergic to chocolate" usually have no problem with Swiss, German or Dutch chocolate where the regulations are stricter.

That's why it's better to grow your own foods as other standards are similar.  [mouse]

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dalbook.html

[deadhorse] Dead horse,  No -- hopefully you won't find one of those in there.

[MountainDon]

People who are "allergic to chocolate" usually have no problem with Swiss, German or Dutch chocolate where the regulations are stricter.

I take issue with that statement.

It is true that the US FDA has set limits on what is referred to as insect filth. However, the EU has no standards at all regarding insect parts. The EU exempts insect parts from their regulation, insect parts being considered natural. The US rule simply recognizes that total eradication of "insect filth" is not practical. People have eaten insects along with their food since caveman days. The only difference is that today we actually ingest less of them, unless we dine on them on purpose. To reduce the amount of allowable insect parts below the present US FDA standards would likely do more harm than good. Pesticide use would be increased because the best way to prevent insect parts is to prevent insects.

Food regulations in other countries are usually less stringent in the listing of trace ingredients, such as soy lecithin, milk, corn syrup, gluten, nuts, flavorings and dyes. Most "chocolate allergies" actually stem from these ingredients rather than the actual cocoa content.

Cockroach allergies do exist, no argument there. However, IIRC, they are mostly airborne allergens, not ingested. I could be wrong on this, but I am quite certain about the food contamination standards of the USA vs. EU

[peternap]

I'm feeling wordy again

Don, you asked about soil for Turnips. Loose friable soil so the roots can grow, Moist but well drained so they don't rot. They tolerate a wide PH but 6ish is best.

Keep the fertilizer light. You want roots and tops to grow equally. Compost with some wood ashes works well and improves the soil. For insect control, have one of your smoking buddies throw all their butts in a bucket with a quart or so of water. Let the sun make a nicotine tea. Spray pests directly with it and wash the tops well before eating. Don't worry, the nicotine is biodegradable.

Grubbs and bugs aren't bad if your hungry enough. I grew up stuck between two worlds. The old and the new. I was born in severe country and later as the son of a well to do lawyer, was educated and got to rub elbows with fancy people . While my father lost his roots, I never did. I suppose that's why I started building muzzleloaders and forging my own knives and hatchets.

Anyway...I'd go into the mountains for weeks at a time and just enjoy trout fishing, hunting or just wandering. I never got lost because a mountain only has three directions. UP and sideways were for having fun. Down took you home.

In the summer, I ate a lot of Grubbs (and trout)

Winter was my favorite though. There is no feeling like being high up in a heavy snow. The Grouse would huddle under spruce trees so they were easy pickins.

I suppose people have problems with what they eat because they aren't used to it. MY kids claim I can eat anything and it's close to the truth. Every part of your body, including your digestive and immune system, needs to be excerised or it gets weak.

I never hear Mexicans telling each other NOT to drink the water.

[glenn kangiser]

Here is something that is easy to do and can increase your self sufficiency. 

Build a hoop house.  Pretty cheap and real simple.  It can extend your growing season.

Suzy and I started on it tonight after Sassy went to work.



The frame is made of PVC pipe stuck over steel stakes driven in the ground.



I'm making this one as we have quite a few peppers and tomatoes still blooming and producing. 



The 20 foot sections of PVC (I used 1" and 3/4" as the lumber yard was low on 1") will need to be cut off about 1 fot or a bit more to allow the 20 foot wide plastic to have soil put over the edges and seal it.  This will make a 12' wide by about 6 foot tall hoop house.  I am taking advantage of the hill behind the tomatoes for a bit of added height.



What could be better than a nice rest in Sassy's chair after a hard days work?hmm



Suzy is one of 3 survivors after puppy shots killed 2 of her brothers, so she is getting a bit spoiled.  All 5 pups nearly died of the shots - the 2 did.

[glenn kangiser]

The hoop house is covered now - Tomatoes seem to be ripening a bit faster.  Guess I better get covers on the rest also -- near frost coming up in about a week or less.

[MountainDon]

Let's hope you don't bake those tomatoes before their time.

I tried a similar thing once and had a problem with the pvc piping wanting to slump over when it got warm to hot. It took some more wire bracing to hold things in shape.


Really, I'm jealous. 

[glenn kangiser]

I have checked it over in the day and it didn't seem excessively hot with the low sun angle.

I cut clips from 1 1/4" pvc, cutting about a 3/4 inch strip out of the side first then cutting them off about 1 1/2 inches long.  These snap over the plastic holding it to the 1" hoop house frame bows.

I am wondering about snow load -- maybe John can do some calcs for me.  I was thinking I could build an internal frame of 2x4s under the center.  Sides are weighted with rocks for now.  The original article I read did mention fixing the sides so they could be lifted up for day time ventilation.  I'm hoping to store heat in the ground -- and maybe used 5 gallon black (was driveway sealer) buckets full of water.

[Robert_Flowers]

I'm writing this for anyone who thanks that Self Sufficiency is a lot of hot air and why everyone need to be Prepared it may not be an attack,storm or our government it could be as sample as a vist to the doctor or pulling up some bushes let me tell you about 2007 for the Flowers family.


2007 started off good i had been working two job and we had cut our debt down and could see the light at the in tunnel then life kicks you in the @#@#@.Cindy's mom had to have outpatient surgery was in hospital 3 days.
Cindy went in hospital found out why she hade been hurting it's  Colon Cancer an 1 1/2 surgery that lasted 6 hours in hospital  for 9 days cindy come home  her father goes in the hospital one of his heart stints is blocked in hospital 4 days
Cindy starts 27 days of radiation 6months of chemo  during this for the first time in 6 years i get sick go to doctor bad case of flu and ear infection that speads to my wisdom tooth and after 42years  i become allergic to penicillin
Cindy's dad goes back in the hospital 3 more times and to to it off on November 27 i hade back surgery to cut a bone and shave a disc i'm out of work til January.

Glenn asked

What are we doing?

Right now a lot of planing,i told cindy on january 1st our lives are going to change we are going to eat a lot better than we do now no more junk food i'm going to put down the mt.dew, we will put in a garden this year and get a 1/2dozen chickens we have 3.36 acres of land and do nothing with it NO MORE after the year we had we can not go on living like we have been.

Life can change in an instant you need to be Prepared.
Robert

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Robert, you're right... life can change in an instant, and it does pay to be prepared.  When my husband was finishing up his degree, he was also working half time outside of his work for school.  Right after our second child was born, his company went through rough times and laid off everyone but the management.  Thankfully, even though our income dropped drastically, we managed to live several months with him only working 20 hours a week and me staying home with the kids with very little (if any) disruption in the way we lived.... We had our chickens, we had a big garden, and I just quit driving anywhere unless it was absolutely necessary...Thankfully we did alright, but if we hadn't had the garden and the chickens and hadn't been pretty much debt free, we would have been in serious hurt. 

I really hope to hear good reports on Cindy's health.  My mom is also a colon cancer survivor... it's been about 5 years now that she's been cancer free.  Changing the way you eat and live can really make a difference in that arena, too.

[glenn kangiser]

Sounds like the crap hit your family all at once, Robert.  I hope things straighten up for you and it sounds like your future plan is a good one.  No time like the present to get started on an improved lifestyle, eh? hmm

[Robert_Flowers]

Homegrown Tomatoes 

Robert, you're right...

Thanks i don't hear that a lot 
We are done with the radiation and chemo her last pet scan showed no cancer thank god, shes doing good.
I guess i should have said that we are  middle age i'm 42, and she just turned 47 in october doctors say she is too young to have colon cancer.
up until this year we were in good health that is why i told everyone this. Trouble come out of a clear blue sky. i waited too long to get prepared but i have a chance to make up for lost time. 
Robert

[MountainDon]

Trouble come out of a clear blue sky.

That's the way lots of medical trouble arrives. 

Sadly we often have habits, do things that aggravate problems. I certainly have done so and have tried to reinvent myself. 

I too truly hope all goes well for you, your wife and family.

[NorthernMich]

First off...Y2K scenario is as simple as a blown up bridge or road....food comes to ONE store in town, via highways....24 hours later all basic staples would be gone...the shelves here empty on deer season weekend

So...96% of people don't know HOW to make bread....what's in bread or have a plan to get ingredients...when I get to the homestead I will have chickens and a goat...took me a couple of years tio get the wife around to that idea.

The house should be efficient and sufficient   I plan top heat with wood.  Solar is iffy and thermal is something you can't really do without heavy equipment and backup supplies....K.I.S.S....100 years ago what did THEY do.  Study the Amish....get prepared, save OP seeds, learn to can over a fire, collect maple syrup maybe even honey.

During the depression who did not go hungry.....probably the rich but...lol my point is it was trappers, that's right...they ate beaver, muskrat and knew how to prepare it.  We might have people turn up their noses at that...today that is...a week....a month....90 days without meals...the pantry is empty...what then??

We do have examples of Indigenous people, hunters, gatherers, farmers...that blend is what a self sufficient person would do.


I'm middle of the ground....6 acres, animals to trap or hunt nearby, garden started and shelter somewhat started....if bad things happen fast, we move into the garage.  Otherwise we hope we finish the house in time...ICF/concrete walls...bermed, walkout.  Not big, not extravagant...but nice 


Store up items that you can use when the electricity goes off....tools, grinder, spare parts, .22 shells....guns.  A week outside will let you know what you need 

I visit the Homesteading sites, GardenWeb and Frugal's

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php

Good info out there.  Be glad to discuss anything in any way to help.

Earl/MI

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Homegrown Tomatoes 

Robert, you're right...

Thanks i don't hear that a lot 
We are done with the radiation and chemo her last pet scan showed no cancer thank god, shes doing good.
I guess i should have said that we are  middle age i'm 42, and she just turned 47 in october doctors say she is too young to have colon cancer.
up until this year we were in good health that is why i told everyone this. Trouble come out of a clear blue sky. i waited too long to get prepared but i have a chance to make up for lost time. 
Robert

I don't think there is such a thing as being too young for cancer... that's about the age my mom was when she had it... she might've been 50?  But even then, they told her that it had probably been growing there for 10 years or more. 

As far as other places to learn good homesteading/roughing it basics, I think backwoods home magazine's online articles are really helpful, particularly if you're considering  raising some kind of livestock you've never raised before, or when it comes to gardening and such.  For me, climate is also really important.  Living in Wisconsin, I've faced drastic changes in the way we garden and the amount we can produce.  In Oklahoma, it was pretty much unlimited... even without much land, we produced everything we ate in terms of fruit and veggies, as well as chickens and free-range eggs.  I found ways to can, dry, or otherwise preserve it for the three months a year that we didn't grow much other than salad greens and cold season veggies.  We were more than $15K below the state's so-called "poverty line" yet we were completely well-fed and blessed.  We never lacked any good thing.  Here in WI, about January, I start going crazy from the lack of the color green.... I start planting beans in pots around the house just for the color, and spinach in window boxes.  Because of the limited sunlight in our yard, my canning to date after 2.5 years here consists of a few pints of green beans and a quart of salsa.  Pretty pathetic for someone who used to can over 100 qts. of tomatoes every summer.     For me, part of my self-sufficiency plan is escaping the frozen north!!!   Did I mention it is snowing AGAIN?

[glenn kangiser]

Seems part of your plan is going South when possible.  That counts too.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Absolutely!!!!  My husband likens it to his experience coming to the US... he says that when he was growing up in Korea, he didn't mind the crowds, the little things about the culture that now drive him nuts, and the bitterly cold winters, but that was primarily because he didn't know it could be any different.  After spending several years acclimating himself to the wild weather in Oklahoma and the hot hot summers, and THEN moving north, he can't stand the cold winters because he knows it CAN be different!  He thinks that is the reason that people up here can tolerate the cold and the clouds... they just accept it because, as he says, "they just don't know any better!"  Ha ha ha.  I can't even describe the desperation I feel to move south... driving up to the city to pick my husband up from work the other day, I was looking out at all the bleak, flat, snow-covered fields between here and there and couldn't help but ask God, "WHY ARE WE STILL UP HERE?" We've almost reached the point where we load up a U-haul whether we have a place to move TO or not and just go anyway!  Have a fellow Okie friend who did the same thing when he was younger... he'd moved to Detroit and didn't even last two years.  About halfway through his second winter there, he came home from work one day and announced to his wife that he couldn't take it anymore, and he called and ordered a U-haul and called his boss and gave him notice.  He didn't have another job to go to or anything, but he just couldn't handle the climate... they moved back home and he found work a few months later, and then eventually ended up buying out that company and going into business for himself.  He's in his 70s now and still consults for several local companies and universities and still raises his cattle southwest of Oklahoma City. 

  Here, I can hardly stand to be outdoors for half an hour in the winter.  When my oldest was a newborn in OK, I remember when she was about a week old and barely weighed 6 lbs., I couldn't handle the cabin fever anymore, and so in early January I bundled her up and put her in a front carrier and walked to the post office and the feed store and the general store to show her off.  I wouldn't dare do that with a newborn in January here... gotta find a way back south before I give birth to a little cheesehead, ha ha.

[glenn kangiser]

My mom was from Wisconsin.  Glad I wasn't born there.  I don't think I could take her calling me a little cheesehead.

She'd have probably nicknamed me Little Limburger or something. hmm

[Robert_Flowers]

My neighbour Ken and i was talking last week about food he said that if he got an extra deer he would give it to me and charge me $40.00 to dress it out. Ken and another friend Rusty  do not buy any meat they both hunt deer,turkey,and wild hogs Rusty's wife Lisa also hunt they fill 2 large freezers every year.
Last night went with cindy to wal-fart to get some food,if i don't start raising of meat or start hunting we will become vegetarians by default,she was complaining  about the prices it was cheaper to buy a roast than stewmeat at $4.69 apound >: for the stew meat ( 21/2 dozen eggs $4.29 milk $4.17 a gallon. I wonder if you could feed a small cow on $10.00 a week thats what we spend on milk now
I had an idea get 25 broilers and let ken butcher them for me, give him 1/3 or 1/2 of the birds, he has the butchering skills i don't, not pure Self Sufficiency but close.

Robert

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Robert, anyone can butcher a chicken... it's not that complicated.  Even my husband, city boy that he is, can handle it... we usually set it up assembly line style.  He kills them and I scald and pluck them, and finish up the process.  It is more efficient if you have a freezer to do several at a time... as much as I hate butchering, I really like the meat.   Tastes totally different than what passes for chicken in the supermarket.  In the mean time, you should look around your area to see if there is a butcher shop that you can buy 1/2 or 1/4 of a cow at once for the freezer.  I looked into it here locally a while back and figured out that you could get beef for about $1.88 a lb. if you bought half... and you get a variety of different cuts in the process.  Of course, you can't have it all in steaks, but you can get a good variety that way, and a heck of a lot cheaper than the grocery store or Wal-mart, if you have the space for it in the freezer.  The local butcher shop here also throws in a bonus of some chickens, sausage and bacon if you buy a half.  You can't go to the ones in the stores, but like a little country meat processor. 
For milk, goats are easier to maintain and don't produce so much milk you have to bathe in it... their milk is rich and good.  Unfortunately, I've never been able to get my husband to drink it... he doesn't like goat's milk.     With chickens, I always ordered straight run (pullets and cocks) and then we ate the extra roosters, hens that didn't lay, and any of them that started getting mean and pecking on the others. Of course, they don't grow as fast as those who are bred specifically as broilers... but they also don't require as much care.  If you order a breed like Buff Orpingtons, you'll have good mama hens who'll sit on a nest and hatch out your next group of chicken and egg dinners, and they forage for food really well... takes care of much of the insect problems in the garden.  They're also nice big chickens that will feed a hungry family when it's time to butcher.  I don't know what part of the country you're in, but I like Cackle Hatchery in Lebanon, MO as far as hatchery chicks are concerned... they provide good information on most of the breeds they sell, and they have a really wide variety to choose from, so if you're in the mid-section of the country and don't mind mail-ordering your chicks, they're a good choice, and you can order online.