20 x 28 with 2nd bedroom in upstate ny

Started by new land owner, May 15, 2011, 04:03:13 PM

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new land owner

Well it looks like this will finally be the year that I get started on my camp.  I have owned my land for about three years and have completed well over 100 "Final" camp designs. After all that design work I have come back to a 20 x 28 camp with a 8 x 8 mud room and a 10 x 12 bedroom addition off the side.  See the floor plan below...




The front of the building will look this


  I will be going with a pressure treated foundation.  This will give me a "crawl space" that is just under 6' tall.  I figure four feet in the ground and 2 feet above.  I intend to use the basement, not crawl space,  design plan for this foundation. I priced the materials at Lowes and was surprised to find that the .6 pressure treated was the same price as the regular stuff.
   Last Tuesday I went north and met with the building inspector.  He was very receptive to my plan and he answered a lot of my questions.  I also met with a septic design engineer.  It is a requirement to have a certified plan before I can get a building permit.  The next step with him is to have a 10' hole dug and he will check it from there.  He did say that the soils look good from above and he does not think there will be an issue.
   This is a picture of how the kitchen will look.  I have already built all the upper cabinets and will start on the lowers soon.


duncanshannon

 [cool]

excited to watch your project evolve!
Home: Minneapolis, MN area.  Land: (no cabin yet) Spooner, WI area.  Plan: 20x34 1 1/2 Story. Experience Level: n00b. 
Build Thread: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10784.0


Native_NM

I really like your design.  The wings add important space, especially the mudroom.  How tall are the walls in the main section?  I noticed a ridge height of almost 30' on a 20' wide plan.  The two wings are 10' lower.  I use Punch also and know it measures from the base layer.  Two feet of stem wall above grade, 1' of subfloor, 10' sidewalls, and 10' rise (12/12 pitch) is 23', or am I missing something?

Another thought - if you are digging 4' down, it might not be that much more to build a full basement, even if its just in the center section.  You could go down another two feet and have 6' below grade, 2' stem wall above grade, and have 8' headroom.  The two extra feet are only 200' sq of foundation wall.  If you are using block, that is about 250 additional blocks, or less than $500.  If you run an exterior stairwell behind the mudroom on the outside wall and place an exterior door on the wall you have the toilet, you have a full basement storage area as well as a place to run mechanicals which I didn't see in your plan.  While your access would only be from the outside, you would not use valuable interior space for stairs.  You could add ~500ft of basement for about $2.50 a sq foot, depending on the cost of the basement slab and the stairs/door.
New Mexico.  Better than regular Mexico.

Squirl

I don't disagree with Native NM, but there are a few more factors if considering a full basement.  First there is a lot of extra labor, not just for the height of the walls, but with the slab, insulation, damp proofing, finishing, electric, etc.  Also all of those things have an actual cost of materials increase too.  In addition, even if you didn't finish it, many localities would still tax you on the added square footage, because you have the ability to finish it.  Since you already have a workshop and screen house, I would weigh the utility of the extra space vs. the cost.  When I did the calculations on a few designs the cost was around as much per square foot to add a basement as a second story. It is an interesting question though and I will rerun my numbers on some of my designs.

John Raabe

Squirl brings up some good points. However, I think I would turn that 6' of headroom into 7-6 or 8' and at least rough in the basement. It provides lots of storage and future usable space for not much extra $$$s.

I wish I had done that with my crawlspace.
None of us are as smart as all of us.


new land owner

          Everyone brings up very good points on my choice of a crawl space as opposed to a full basement.  I have created many designs with a full basement but am going with the crawl space for the following.
The first concern I have is the Tax man.  I am concerned that a full basement will indeed have an increase in my taxes.  I am trying to keep the scale down and hopefully taxes as well.
   Secondly in keeping the scale down I do not want to deal with stairs.  The building seems to always get bigger when I try and place stairs to get to the basement.  My wife and I have talked about the future and we will be using our place as a camp and not a permanent residence.
   Also as pointed out I have been working on my land and have built both a 14ft square screen house and  12 x 20 storage building.  So I have plenty of room for storage.
   I fully intend to put all of my mechanicals in the crawl space and am thinking of creating a sealed room in the crawl space under the bathroom and kitchen. I will be using a tank system to hold water and I could heat this small area to minimum temps for use in the cold winter months in the Adirondacks.
   

new land owner

Went up to my land for a couple of days this week.  I have had a septic guy in and we dug a deep test hole.  My land has a natural area that is higher than the rest and I intend to level this and put in the septic.  We dug a 10' deep hole that he has since inspected and assured me that there will be no issue with the perk.  I should have the land leveled in the next week or so and we can get started.
 
This is a picture of the hill.


This is a picture of the test hole and the area that my brother and i cleared for the land to be leveled.


Once this is leveled we can get the septic guy back to finish his perk test. I need to have a septic design before I can get the building permit.

One issue I am having is that no one seems to be in a hurry to call back with estimates.  I have been looking for a source for Pressure Treated Wood foundation materials and have not gotten a call back yet.  I know it is the busy season for these guys but it would seem like they would call back?  The same is happening with my roof trusses.

Squirl

So how well does your land perc?  You may want to do it yourself if your inspector has no problem with it.  The reason the cost is so high on some jobs is the cost of information on how it is done.  I spent a few days studying it here:
http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm
It is about 20 pages.  If you perc for a standard gravity fed system you would probably only have to learn 5 pages of it.  The main part you would have to learn would be the trenches.  When I had demonstrated that I knew the provisions and citations of the code, the inspector said go for it.  The septic engineer I talked to even recommended it.  He said that you could rent a track hoe from the local rental agency at $200 a day and you could have it dug in one day if you had it laid out ahead of time.  The three largest costs to the system are the tank, the pipes and the gravel. These prices are in my area, slightly south west of you IIRC.  Gravel is delivered $300 for a 12 yard load.  The most it would need is 2 loads for the largest 2 bedroom system.  A concrete tank is $525, with $100 delivery charge.  They put it in the whole if you have it already dug.  It saves you on equipment.  The largest system for a 2 bedroom is 245 ft of trenches so around 28 perforated pipes at $10 each.  You will need a D box, geotextile fabric, and some 4" pvc too.  Whatever the amount the quote comes in above $1800 is knowledge, equipment, and labor.  I couldn't tell if this was one of the areas people weren't calling you back.

On the stamped PWF wood, I was going off your research that Lowes carried it.  I guess they aren't getting back to you very well.  I'm sorry to hear that.

new land owner

Lowes can supply the PWF wood however their supplier will only sell it in Bunk quantities or 80 pcs of each size!


new land owner

It is amazing what a couple of hours on a backhoe can do your lot.  The lot is now leveled out and the septic guy is coming on Monday to do the final perk test. 



This pile of gravel going to go along way in filling in the road coming into my camp.



I have found a source for the PWF wood and have some of the product coming this week.  If all goes well I intend to start my build while I am on vacation starting on July 17th.  I can't wait to get going

mogie01


new land owner

We went up to the lake on the 4th of July weekend to check out the new look of the lot.  I think my guy did a great job.  I spent the better part of a day moving the "foundation" around to get the building to sit where I thought it should be.  The land passed perk and if you can see the small flags in the picture this is where the system will be set.




Another 10 hours of backhoe work and the foundation is in.  I am on vacation the week of the 17th and have everything in place to get the PWF in and covered.




AdironDoc

Looks great! I'm excited to see how your camp shapes up over the next couple months. I like your design, especially the mud room which will prove extremely useful I'm sure. Are you in the catskills or higher? Up in Herkimer they're more relaxed with permitting and perc. until you get into the Adirondack park. Then there are many hoops to jump through. Glad I'm on the edge, but not over.  ;D

Hope you'll post a photo or two of the soil anchors. Never got to see mine put in.

Cheers,

Doc

new land owner

Doc
       I am in the Adirondack Park; my lot is about 2 hours north of Herkimer just outside Saranac Lake.  Thanks for the positive comments on my design it took a long time to settle on the final design.  I will be using the mud room to store wood for the wood stove and I think it will be a great place to drop off my snowmobile outfit before entering the main camp.
Tom



new land owner

Well I am starting my build on my vacation next week and I am still making changes.  I was looking at my floor plan last night and it seemed to make a lot of since to flip the main portion of the building.  When I do this I have both bedrooms near each other and next to the bathroom.  I also will have the wood stove next to the mud room where I intend to keep a supply of fire wood.  This is my final design.lol



Sassy

Final design, huh?  Famous last words  d*  Looks like a great use of space, nice layout!
http://glennkathystroglodytecabin.blogspot.com/

You will know the truth & the truth will set you free

John Raabe

Nice logical layout and good use of space. Two things you might consider, both involve windows. The right bedroom could have a window on the back wall that would provide for good cross ventilation and light balance. It would be nice to get a window in the kitchen. I can see why you don't want to reverse the sink and range, but you might explore a window above the range where the vent hood is set higher than normal.
None of us are as smart as all of us.

new land owner

John
     Both good points, I am planning a closet in the back of the bedroom which would not allow for the additional windows and I have also purchased a combo Microwave hood vent so I would not have room for a window.
   I am however building my own kitchen cabinets and I have made all of the uppers with additional space under the cabinets to hide task lighting that I intend to install later.
   I am also planning that with the sink placement when I am doing the dishes I will have a view of the back yard thru the windows near the table.

AdironDoc

I'd love to see how your PWF is progressing. Can you post some photos? It would be interesting to see how ours differ. I like your "final" version. I've had several final versions of my own.  ;)

Glenn

new land owner

Just spent a very hot week working on my camp!

Here is where I started on last Saturday night




I rented a tamper and worked at final leveling of the stone.  That was the hardest job of all getting a level starting spot.  The best tools you can have is a sister and Brother-in-law who want to help.






Here is a picture showing the crawl space.  It took a while to figure out how to put up a 38' beam.  We did 16' at a time and it turned out not to be as hard as we thought it would be.



The 6mil poly is now in place.  I just went around and cut off the portion over the 1' strip of plywood and then caulked the top of the plywood.



The last thing I did was to make a top for the crawl space stairs.  All in all a good week!



Squirl

What kind of wood/treatment did you go with? The one the local supplier had around me was wolmanized.  I was a little unfamiliar with it and was checking to see if you had the common treatment kinds around you.

new land owner

Mine was wolmanized, although I bought wood at two different lumber yards, one in the Finger Lakes and one in the Adirondacks,  both orders came from the same place.  They both came from a source in Cortland, NY, all product was stamped as PWF.

Squirl

Thank you. Same here.  When I had called the lumber yard had said a .23 treatment.  Which just happened to be for the same treatment level for decks at the big box stores.  I was surprised that the people at the yard had no idea the difference in treatments. I was skeptical, but if you say it comes with a PWF stamp, then that is exactly what I was looking for. They told me it was from FDM.

Alan Gage

When I was thinking about PWF earlier this year and talking to my local supplier he said he didn't carry any of the .6 treated stuff on hand but had a supplier in MN for it. They're not unheard of in our area and he was very familiar with the different treatments.  So I was surprised the other day when I picked up a sheet of 1/2" treated plywood and it was stamped for PWF. Don't know if it was the .6 or not.

Alan

new land owner

My issue with .6 PWF wood started when I made an order for the footer, top and bottom plates.  When I went to pick up the product it was stamped as PWF but showed .23.  The supplier gave me a copy of documentation that showed .23 was the "New" standard for PWF.  I reluctantly took the product as I needed to get going with my preplanning.
   When I placed the large order for the Plywood and all of the studs I was told that the product would be stamped as .6. The order arrived and I had my brother-in-law meet the truck.  When I arrived at my job sight I found that the new product was from the same place as all of it was marked as PWF and .23.  I used the product and I went with the fact that it is stamped and should be good for my project.