Stone

[redbird]

Hi all,

We are in the very very beginning stages of thinking about building on our land.  We are sort of in the dreaming stage.

I've looked at a million house plans and I keep coming back to the 20x34 2 story!  It's so perfectly designed!  My question is, has anyone ever built one with stone, to give it a kind of English tudor look?  Or is this so out of the question I might as well just stop

Thanks!

[redbird]

http://pixdaus.com/single.php?id=168211

Kinda like this.

[Redoverfarm]

Right off the bat I would say that it would be cost prohibitive.  Labor rate for a Stone mason would be in the neighborhood of $30 + per hour.   

A less costly alternative would be cultured stone.  When I have time I will reply with some particulars.

[Native_NM]

It would be easy to face one side with cultured stone. Maybe the exposed stem wall all the way around and the front facade.  Would look nice.

[glenn kangiser]

Possibly build standard, well insulated and add stone veneer to the walls for accent.  There would be special considerations for doing it that way.  Ties, possibly heavier walls - rain screen and moisture drains and space being a few.

[glenn kangiser]

A stone house by itself can be very hard to heat or cool depending on where you are.  There is one near us owned by some friends.

[Squirl]

Glenn makes a great point.  Stone is mostly used as a veneer in today's building world.  I don't know if you have codes where you are at, but even if you don't they are still generally good to follow.  I lived in an old stone house. Stone is massive (thermal mass), but doesn't insulate.  It can absorb lots of heat, but without insulation to hold that heat in, it will leak out of the walls and get cold quickly.  It can be a huge pain to heat and cool.  In a sense you will have to build a complete wall for insulation anyway and probably set it apart from the stone for condensation reasons.  Then you would lose the benefit of the thermal mass . So in a sense, you will have to build a house inside a stone veneer. If you look at the walls of old stone houses, there are actually two walls, with an air gap in between.  This was sometimes stuffed with straw or wool which of course would rot or grow mold. The walls would be 2ft thick or more.


I love stone, but I chose not to build it as my first house, because of labor (can take months of non stop work), cost (double to triple every other option), and code (very complicated PITA).  Stone has two things going for it in my book. 1. Looks great 2. will last many lifetimes.  I haven't even barely touched on the list of downsides. That being said I hope to build a field stone someday.

[Redoverfarm]

redbird with the choices available today in "cultured or faux" stone you can replicate some of the older stone houses for a fraction of the cost to duplicate.  If you are considering cultured stone look at paying in the neighborhood at a minimum of $5-6 psf for the stone and probably another $3-4 psf for labor.  So roughly you would have $10 psf . That is unless you decided to forego the labor yourself.  If you shopped around I would imagine you can find some stone for about $4-5 psf.  

If you are seriously considering or anticipating using cultured stone I would use 2X6 walls rather than 2X4.  In addition I would use 1/2" ply at minimum rather than OSB.  You will need to wrap the exterior with either 30# felt or ice/storm guard, followed by lathe wire attached.  Then you will parge to 1/4-3/8".  Then lay your stone.  Cultured stone requires no footing for support as brick/stone does.  So the weight on the walls are minimum.  If you are really concerned with the load factor I am sure the manufacturer can provide you with the specification psf but in the industry that has not really been a major problem.

These are all examples of Cultured stone at Dogtrot @  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3613.0







These is example of stone over 1/2 ply and lathe










Here is a company that I have been dealing with merely for the fact that they are close and discount the stone at the factory.  They have a gallery that will give you some idea of the different type of stone made.

http://www.manufactured-rock.com/gallery.htm

Here are some others that you might look at.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cultured+stone&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLF_en

Sorry it has taken me awhile to reply but I have been a little busy lately.  If you decide to do it yourself need any guidance just ask.

[UK4X4]

Redover Farm,
John

is that fireplace a kit or a self build ?

ie the firebrick part ?

[Redoverfarm]

Redover Farm,
John

is that fireplace a kit or a self build ?

ie the firebrick part ?

Both fireplaces ( inside and outside) are mason built fireplaces.  But even with an insert ( manufactured fireplace) you can incorporate a stone facade to make it appear to be mason built.

[redbird]

WOW! I so appreciate the expertise!  In Kansas, it gets really cold and really hot. Sounds like stone isn't the best idea.  There are tons of stone homes all over this area. Some are great, some are falling down after just 100 years. We do live in the Flint Hills though and our land is full of stone in spots.  Redoverfarm, I do like the idea of using the stone for accents.  Maybe I should save this idea for a experimental cold storage for wine way in the future after the main house in built Energy efficiency is definately a big goal with this house!  Cost is ovbiously an issue. For some reason I was thinking it might be cheaper.

[Squirl]

You should look into slip stone construction.  You might be able to accomplish it with rigid foam in between two stone walls with concrete and rebar.  I don't think it would be any cheaper than a stick built and it would take a much greater amount of labor than stick built.  It would also not look like a cut stone English Tudor house..

[Don_P]

Slip form is the name I've heard it go by here. With the limestone I suspect redbird has I'd just lay it. A rubblestone wall is required to be at least 16" thick. Our mason's are hitting about 10-15 sf/person/day with sandstone fieldstone. A stone house would be cheaper if you do the labor but a good bit slower. I'd be mighty jealous.

[Squirl]

Don, I'v been curious about the definition of "rubblestone".  I've seen rubblestone foundations as a myriad of ways.  Mortared stones, crushed gravel, stacked drystones.  Can you shine some light on this?  I get tripped up with when the people use the same description for different styles.

[Don_P]

My read is rubblestone as opposed to coursed, dressed stone (ashlar) masonry.
I found this wiki link that describes the difference;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashlar
Just about anything one of us would do would qualify as rubblestone.

[Squirl]

Thank you. That is very helpfull.  It is something I have been wondering about and researching for a long time.  I first noticed it here:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_4_sec004_par035.htm  I noticed there are no rebar requirements, but it is completely not allowed in seismic zone D.  I didn't see any specifications for footings for them though.

I have seen people interpret this a 16" trench down to the frost line filled with crushed stone or rubble with a concrete footing above.  I had seen a lot with straw bale construction.  Some people called this rubble trench too, hence my confusion.

I need to do more research in rubble stone walls (rebar, mortar, height, sizing).  My plan someday would be to build an outer bearing wall, with rigid foam, and an inner stone wall.  I take it the bearing wall would be 16 inches thick.  I go back and forth if the inner wall or outer wall should be the bearing wall.

[redbird]

I am so impressed with everyone!  Thank you!  Taking on a project is going to feel much less frightening with the fine support group here! 

[Don_P]

Thanks redbird, I'm not sure we said 

Squirl,
I think you are trying to blend or rectify 2 seperate code sections. The rubble trench footing is covered in this section;
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_4_sec003.htm
Of course with the blessing of an engineer that can be expanded upon.
Your cite is correct for what I am doing a rubble stone foundation wall. You are correct that it is unreinforced masonry at 16" thick, a standard, continuous concrete footing is used.

The section has vbeen written and rewritten and its lacking in this version. Older versions of the code assigned varying compressive strength to different rock e.g. granite, limestone, marble walls using ashlar construction IIRC 450-750 psi and rubblestone was assigned around 100 psi. There was also a section describing bond stones and their distribution within the wall. I didn't dig hard but I believe all that is gone.

[Don_P]

I took the camera to work today and got some shots of our rubblestone in progress, this is all on a continuous poured footing. The masons are brining the porch support columns up to 36" above the porch floor and will get a matching shade of bluestone caps. There will be oak timbers on top of those to carry the porch roof. We installed one oak timber yesterday down to the porch floor, it's in the background of one of the shots. The steel square tube is bolted to the 1/2x2" flat stock embedded through the column and will be tapped for cable railing. If the beauty of that fades the cables and square tubes can be unbolted and another railing system can be fastened to the flat bars poking out of the stone columns. The stone came from the property, we had the excavator out today hunting for more in the field edge piles. He did find a really good nest of pithed off copperheads. we had talked about taking the tractor down and hand picking... kinda put the brakes on that plan for now.

[Squirl]

WOW!

Talk about a dream house.  That will probably be there for centuries.  You must get a lot of satisfaction working on something like that.  I would.  Thank you for sharing that.  I have been researching the process since this thread started.  I found that it has a 20:1 wall thickness to length ratio.  So if I wanted to build a 30 foot long wall without buttresses, I would take 30*12=360 divided by 20 = an 18" thick wall.  Great memory too Don_P.  It can be 100 or 120 depending on mortar. I suppose this comes into play more with columns and ridge beams. 

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_6_sec006_par014.htm

When you say a continuous poured footer, how wide and thick do you mean?  I was having trouble calculating that because the largest footer is designed for 8" masonry and I assume 16" of stone weighs a little more.

[Don_P]

This continues to be a very enjoyable job. This house should be there for quite awhile if maintained.
Let's do a quick and dirty check, to be honest I haven't;
The footings are 2' wide x 1' thick, the soil is 2000 psf capacity easily, so 4k per lineal foot bearing capacity.

Sandstone weighs about 150 pcf, the wall is 16" thick... 1.33'. 150x1.33=~200lbs/lineal foot/ foot of wall height. The tall wall is about 10', 200lbs x 10'=2000 plf of stone wall weight.

The porch floor is 50 psf total load, the roof 35 psf total, 1/2 trib width is 6' + 2' overhang... (50 + 35) x 8'= 680 lbs.

I'm at a little under 3000 pounds and have 4000 lbs bearing capacity, should be ok.

There is a section that says something to the effect that the footing should be designed to resist the loads they are bearing on the soils present, divide load by bearing strength of the soil and you have minimum footing width, R403.1. For thickness keep reading through R403.1.1