Composting toilet

[peter nap]

This is my last ...before I start.......decision.

There isn't much difference in the cost of a septic system and a composting toilet.

I like the idea of the green system and since this is purely off the grid, I like the idea of keeping under radar.

Does anyone have one and what are your feelings pro and con?

[Ernest T. Bass]

There isn't much cost difference? What kind of a system are you looking in to? We would like to go the compost and graywater rout, but comp. toilets aren't permitted by code around here in the U.P. of Michigan... (Even though the Porcupine Mountains, a huge wilderness state park, touts the enviro friendliness of their special and unique "composting toilet facilities"...)

Our septic system cost us around 6k to get installed when we first moved here, and we just had a big ordeal with a plastic tank failure... Whole thing crushed up and must have been leaking. Things like that, combined with needing to pump the tank every year or so limits a person's self-sufficiency..

[MountainDon]

There isn't much difference in the cost of a septic system and a composting toilet.

It depends on the type of composting toilet. If you go with one of the commercially available models that could be an accurate statement. However if you go with one of the alternative designs, they can be much less expensive. But it seems to me they require a little more work and an adjustment in mental attitude.

See this link on the forum
http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1184455103/0

I wish I did know someone with actually, uh... hands-on   experience.

[peter nap]

I am talking about commercial units. I may well build one but for now I'm trying to keep apples to apples.

My cost to have a septic system installed is 2000.00 turnkey (just the tank and field)
The commercial composters run 1100.00 for the very low end I've found to about 1950.00 for the crawl space model.

I am building next to one of the last unspoiled rivers in this state. Further, to get a large truck in, I'd have to build a real road. Virginia approves composters with a mini drainfield gor greywater so if I ever need to, I can get a permit. For right now. I'd just as soon not get a permit for anything. Since the house is a pole building, I don't need a permit for it either.

[FrankInWIS]

I'm confused by the cost statemen too.   I see many alternate toilet systems 1 - 1.5 K, my septic (at grade mound) will be 7 K.  ....when he gets to it!  
I called my installer for the first time in weeks on Friday to see if the permit was back from the state and when he would start.  He (Jeff) answered the cel phone... and I am quite sure it was him.... and he said " Jeff is out of town this weekend" !!

[peter nap]

I suppose it is mostly due to the cost of living. I have no idea what it costs to do things in Wisconsin, but in the southern parts of Virginia (or at least the rural areas) 2000.00 is a normal price. One might have to dicker a little to get that price but it isn't hard.

Further, anyone in the construction trade is hurting now. In a couple of months, the traditional, slow period starts. I expect you could get it done for 1500.00 in November.

Oh....I think I'd send Jeff's little hiney down the road!

[glenn kangiser]

Average normal here w/tank and field is 5 to 7K

[peter nap]

It's all relative. This particular county showed an average income of about 23000.00 per household on the last census.
There is no industry except timber since tobacco fell out of favor and land can be had after logging for 750.00 an acre. I pay almost 3 times the real estate taxes on my home in central Va. as I do on 125 acres there.

[glenn kangiser]

Yeah -- California is always high to high average.

[peter nap]

Another long research project. I've looked over the specs and looked at every forum post I can find. It looks like sun-mar is the way to go.

I had a talk with the Va health department today. I had planned to go under the radar but now think I'll get the permit so I don't have to worry about it in the future. ALL VA REQUIRES is the manufacturers certificate that it comply s with ANSI whatever (sorry, I forgot the exact standard) Sun-Mar is in complete compliance.
No inspections. etc.

Here's the sticky point. For greywater from sinks and showers, there has to be "a way to keep the water from becoming septic"

No real specs. I talked with inflitrator and they agreed it was a judgment call and there was no data on greywater absorption rates.
They suggested and I agree, that I ask the health inspector if I can double the capacity of the inflitrator system.
The 4 foot sections have a capacity of 64 gallons. If I anticipated 50 gallons a day, use two sections (actually, I'll put in 4...they're only twenty couple dollars each) and digging the ditch is free.

[MountainDon]

Peter, what brand of infiltrator are you selecting? Just curious for future reference.

[peter nap]

http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/quick4.htm

[glenn kangiser]

That is the same model I used here.  Great to work with.

[MountainDon]

Looks like it couldn't be simpler

[glenn kangiser]

Yep -- you just locate the end where you want it, then the inlet end is marked, and you just insert the locking edge under the molded hook at 90 degrees - a protruding button goes into a matching hole and you lay it down flat.  I laser to ground to no more than about 2 inches drop in 100 feet.  The guy that did the system to the right of mine put almost 3' of drop in 50 feet -- the low end filled up and burst out of the ground in about 2 years.  

No problem with mine.  The previous -- had to be unlicensed contractor -- is now selling hot dogs and his equipment.  Wonder why. :-?

[glenn kangiser]

Note that they are also designed to be curved a good amount to follow the land contour and get around obstacles such as giant rocks.

[glenn kangiser]

On another note, I was at bedrock with this system about 3 feet down on the high side.  An impermeable claystone.  Fairly soft but it does not let water penetrate it.

I didn't have a backhoe available so dug it with the Bobcat.  With a 1 cubic yard capacity Bobcat bucket it was done, hooked up and backfilled in 2 days.  

The backfilling was done gently until the excavation was full on both sides and top then the modules were capable of supporting the weight of the 11000 lb Bobcat.  I was still gentle though.

[peter nap]

Now......I have to start deciding about the cooling. Heat's a no brainer. For circulation, I am putting in three large cupolas. One over each loft and one in the center of the cathedral ceiling.
An airtight hatch will seal them when needed.

I am looking hard at the earth tubes mentioned  in one of the posts here. That would be plenty for me but my wife likes cold rather than cool.

I'm afraid I'm going to wind up using the propane generator to power an AC unit 2 months out of the year.

[MountainDon]

I your wife likes Cold (as mine somewhat does) you may be right. Depending on how well you insulate, position windows &/or provide hot weather shading for the windows you can go a long ways to reducing the cooling load. A part of the "feel comfortable" equation is the usual relative humidity though and that's hard to beat without A/C.

At my place in the mountains it can get inda hot for a few hours in the month of July mainly. Living in the RV it has been necessary to run the generator to power the A/C for a few hours over a period of 3 to 4 weeks. Not every day, sometimes clouds would roll in and save the day.

When it comes to the yet to be built cabin I'm hoping that the vastly superior insulation I'll be installing will obviate the need for the A/C. Time will tell.

[SansPlans]

This is my last ...before I start.......decision.

There isn't much difference in the cost of a septic system and a composting toilet.

I like the idea of the green system and since this is purely off the grid, I like the idea of keeping under radar.

Does anyone have one and what are your feelings pro and con?

There is no greater toilet than the sawdust toilet.  
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/sawdustoilet.html

Don't use dry sawdust, use rotted leaves or something you can gather around your property if possible.  If it already has started breaking down, your toilet won't smell at all. In a "live-in-rv-while-building" situation, I tried

1) "black water tank/tote/standard rv water toilet"...it smelled all the time. I don't know how RVers can stand it. also it uses lots of water and I was having water hauled in 1500 gallons every two months, so I didn't like the idea of wasting it all on a toilet.
2) "electric, stainless steel Incinerating Toilet." with shipping, accessories, liners, etc it was about a $2k initial purchase.  Add to that the electricity cost of 30-40/month, and the ongoing cost of purchasing bowl liners, and it can be very annoying to use for a longer-term situation. Also, things like heating elements can go bad and it's too late before you realize what is wrong.  Fans need to be cleaned. If someone uses it while it's already hot and cooking, it emits a puff of very nasty smelling smoke that smells like a barbecue you wouldn't want to eat.  It is a really neat appliance, but compared to the sawdust toilet, it's cost benefit ratio is all upside down and if I could do it all over again I probably would not have bought it. I would rather have the $2k and the sawdust toilet.
3) "sawdust toilet."  Initial cost about 50 bucks.  Nice birch plywood, brass hinges, stained finish...I actually like the way it looks. I have video footage of my daughter dancing around the toilet proclaiming that it was the nicest toilet ever and when she grows up she'll get to keep it forever, and how we should make one for grandma and a small one to play with.   Never smells (well...immediately after deposit it might smell but that isn't the toilets fault). The only time it smelled was when I used sawdust from a woodshop. The sawdust had no organisms in it, and it didn't keep it from smelling because it was too dry. The reasons are all explained in the handbook found at the link above. Wife got tired of me waiting for the problem to solve itself (the sawdust toilet was her idea... I wanted to get the incinerating toilet heating element replaced) and went outside and scooped up a 5 gallon bucket of old rotting leaves and voila, smell is gone.  

One warning: the sawdust toilet can be somewhat vocational compared to a standard toilet.  However I think it is better than a composting toilet because it doesn't rely on composting to happen in the toilet. A sawdust toilet properly managed should take only 20 minutes a week in maintenance.  That has been my experience as well.

With a sawdust toilet, the composting happens in a composting pile instead of in the toilet.

Let me know if you have any questions.

I will eventually get a septic tank, but as an short-term solution for a waste problem, the sawdust toilet is the best. You could very easily do it long term, but where I live I think it is a matter of time before someone comes knocking wondering why I live here but have no septic tank.  That's a conversation I'd rather not have if you know what I mean.

[MountainDon]

Glad to hear from a real live user of a sawdust toilet. It's good to hear they can and do work well.

One of my reservations about them is the need for good sawdust. I've heard that the saw dust from a sawmill (cutting green wood) is good. Or from chainsaw use. I have no sawmills nearby and even tho' I currently am producing a fair amount of chainsaw sawdust, that will not be going on much more than a year and doesn't really produce large amounts.

As for leaves, that sounds great, if you have the leaves. I have a conifer forest with very few deciduous trees or bushes. Pine needles don't seem to break down very fast.

That would leave having to buy something for a sawdust toilet. If I could find a good substitute, cheap, I might give the sawdust toilet more consideration.  :-/

Regarding your observations on the incinerating toilet. You validated my fears about them. I could never use an electric model being solely off grid and the propane use/cost seemed like it would add up.

A final note regarding the RV toilet. Mine doesn't smell bad at all, except for those brief operational moments you mentioned. But that is strictly because I use a holding tank chemical. My experience has been that some of the chemical formulations work much better at odor elimination than others. And without any holding tank chemicals they reek like a cesspool... which is basically what you'd have under the toilet.