Self Sufficiency-Problems-Questions-Answers

[glenn kangiser]

I think one of the things we will find as we realize fossil fuel is getting short is that small efficient houses such as the ones John designs are  part of the solution.

An extension of this is to learn to take care of ourselves, without relying on big brother and the large corporate system we rely on today for everything from power to food.  When it becomes unprofitable for them to supply us or impossible due to oil supply problems etc. will we be able to take care of ourselves and our familys

Lets hear about self sufficiency experiments - questions - concerns - solutions.  What works for you?  Do you think we should learn to provide for ourselves?  Do you think any concerns are unwarranted?

[JRR]

If we, in great numbers, could learn gardening skills ... and get off the commercial "food grid"... just think of the impact that would have on other precious resources.   And fresh foods would probably improve our health... certainly our quality of life.

So  where do I find plans for the large green house that I suddenly require?    

  

[Amanda_931]

Start with cold frames (not hard to make) and row covers and wall-o-waters.

The Mennonites in the next county seem to be big on row covers.

After that look to your greenhouse supplier?

(where a local woman who raises and sells seedlings from January through Mother's Day got the stuff to replace the cover on her quonset-type greenhouse.  It had outlived its predicted life by a couple of years--but a couple of inches of wet snow last year wasn't kind to it--just plastic film.)

If you get in deep, look up Solviva.  The book, still in print, or the website:

http://www.solviva.com/

Or do permaculture, which largely thinks that greenhouses are nuts.  Maybe not for those in Alaska, though.

I've lost my good set of links from some extension service or other of Greenhouse links.  It's probably there [glb]somewhere[/glb].

Don't know anything about these guys, but it looks as if it might be interesting:

http://www.hobbygreenhouse.org/#activities

[glenn kangiser]

John already has some plans here that could be used for it.

http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/35.html



If you want something larger, independent and want to get started on the cheaper side a hoop house is a good way to go.  18' Hoops of PVC can be attached to rebar stakes driven into the ground 10' apart. You can get fancier from there going to UV resistant plastic or on up to wood or metal framed greenhouses but it is not necessary for functionality.  

There is no comparison in quality.  The bland chemically blown up commercial farm food will become something you will only eat when you have to.  People are sometimes actually shocked to find that vegetables actually have distinct good flavors rather than the bland mealy things pawned off by the supermarkets.  The food you get in most stores is chosen for it's eye appeal and storing qualities- not how good it is for you or how good it tastes.  Try some heirloom varieties for real flavor - and the seeds from them will grow too.

Here is a good article link on inexpensive hoop houses.

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1825/eb1825.html

[Daddymem]

I don't think it has to be as extreme as growing enough to feed your family.  Not everyone has enough time, land, or green thumbs.   Looking back in history not everyone was a farmer.  A good second choice in the food department would be your local farmer, not every farmer grows mush, you can get some very tasty veggies from the local farmer.  This site points you to local farmer's markets: http://www.localharvest.org/

Another website with great resources: http://www.care2.com/

[vojacek]

we live in a large farming community, mainly rice. a few years ago a local farmer passed and left his mass acreage to texas a&m university for ag and research purposes. the school sold the property soon after to a developer. the developer went bankrupt.  so now  a whole bunch of half built particle board houses  sitting in what used to be one of the most beautiful roads in our county. we heard it will be bought soon and the county is wanting to offer 7 years tax free incentive to get buyers. we all know what this means for our local taxes.  my point? the reason that farmer donated his land is because he knew  the future generation would not be able to survive on income from farming. over half of rice comsumed in the US is from asia. when people have to go without they will begin to realize the importace of where and how they spend their money. until then, they'll continue to live in their millon dollar particle board houses filled with contributions to the child labor market.  we need to teach our children that self sufficiency doesn't mean pumping your own gas!

[glenn kangiser]

As Daddymem says, the little guys are the ones who usually have the better stuff, and don't forget barter if you decide you can't grow your own.  You will be dependent on someone else though if that is your choice.  

Even a small garden in a tire for a raised bed or square foot gardening to experiment is a good way to start.  I can see it all now -- Cape Cod yards all filled with tractor tires full of fresh tasty vegetables.  Won't the HOA love it

A friend of ours grows sweet potatoes.  A large soup company was buying the culls to make a juice drink for $40 per ton.  Not much, but it helped pick up expenses.  The next year they dropped the contract because it was cheaper to get the sweet potatoes from China.  What's wrong with this picture

[Epiphany]

Another alternative if you are unable or unwilling to grow ALL your own food is to buy in bulk from a co-op.  If you can find one that sells from local farmers, even better.

One of the web sites mentioned in a post here advocates growing your own wheat, making indoor-grown greens 50% or more of your diet, etc.  While I grew up with Mother Earth News, Helen and Scott Nearing, and believe our lives and health is at stake because of our modern eating habits, the reality of a single person growing and storing all my own wheat isn't very practical.  That's where co-ops and bartering come in.  

[Daddymem]

Even a small garden in a tire for a raised bed or square foot gardening to experiment is a good way to start.  I can see it all now -- Cape Cod yards all filled with tractor tires full of fresh tasty vegetables.  Won't the HOA love it

Hey! I resemble that remark!  Actually, I use clever recycle tricks around my yard.  For planters, I use the cutoff ends of large diameter drainage pipes, the stuff contractors throw away when done.  A nice 24" or 36" diameter circle (48" if you are lucky) 8-12" high, and most of mine are either concrete or black HDPE.

Another trick is the edging around my house is waste from concrete block makers.  They are triangles about 4"wide and 4" depth in alternating blue-green and red.  I get compliments all the time on them and all I did was find a discard pile and load my truck up for free!

I'm missing something here...what is HOA?  

[melwynnd]

There is something everyone should consider.  Our economy is not set up to favor the small producer.  As a "micofarmer" myself I have come across these problems.  

I cannot sell raw milk, I cannot sell meat unless it is sold "on the hoof".  Consumers are the ones that will ultimately determine how accessable these things are.  

Personally I would prefer to meet the person who is providing these things and see his operation than to trust a big(make that huge ) corporation to give a @#$% about my health.

Sherry

[glenn kangiser]

You're right Sherry.  The small producers are actually locked out in many places if they can't produce thousands of gallons or millions of tons and their parent company isn't a major oil company etc.

HOA is home owners association-- can't let the tractor tire garden bring down the value of the land.  Sounds like your neighbors are OK.  I'm thinking about an area down the road where the neighbors in the HOA don't even allow an RV in the back yard if it shows over the fence, at least not without making a complaint about it.

[glenn kangiser]

Most of the best soil for growing plants and   vegetables is man made.  Compost is a good way to do it.  Compost can be made quickly if you add some work to the process.  Horse manure is the ideal mix of carbon to nitrogen for fast composting.  If it has extra straw or bedding material in it then addition of chicken manure would bring up the nitrogen to the proper level.  For fast composting-done in as fast as 4 weeks under ideal conditions-  turn it weekly and dampen just enough so moisture will dampen your hand if you squeeze it but will not run out.  This is for fast composting-- sticks -chips -grass- brush- clippings etc will all compost at various rates but all need air and dampness to go fastest.  Proper composting will yield temperatures over 120f and kill weed seed and pathogens.  Even in an unturned pile it will eventually compost but may take a year or more.  

One of the early hydroponic methods was to take a bale of straw, pour a manure tea over it to get it composting put soil on top and plant  in that.  I tried it last year and it does work great- Things were even better this year- parsnips and beets over 4" dia.  Soil added to compost mixtures helps add necessary nutrients.  Small amounts of wood ash also add something like 14 necessary trace minerals.  It is best to study up on the needs of each plant also.  I'm getting better at it but still have a ways to go.

There are many methods if you study the net.  This is just something to get you started.

[melwynnd]

Glenn,

Didn't you tell me you were working on a methane digester?  I am REALLY interested in this method.  I already have the animals, as well as acesses to as much manure as I want.  

Wood is not a realistic fuel here.  The only trees growing are pretty much those planted by people.  I could by a premit from the forest service to cut in the mountains, but with the price of fuel, the 120 mile round trip doesn't seem economic.  

My husband wanted to buy a pellet stove, but to me that isn't any different than having natural gas heat, you have to pay what they charge for pellets, whether they go up or not.

Sherry

[glenn kangiser]

I haven't built it yet and may be a while but have studied up on it and collected a lot of stuff that can be used on it over the years.  A very simple one to experiment with could be made in a few hours. In India they are fairly common and they have worked out some pretty good methods over there.  Working it with some kind of continuous composter  on the outside to provide heat seems to be an ideal way to go.  I will get links here or look through my old files to find the information for you.  

Here is a collection of the files.  You will need to study it over to understand the theory then you will be able to understand what is necessary to make and operate your own working unit.  A small one with a 55 gallon drum with a garbage can upside down for a collector would be something to start experimenting with - maybe make your own eternal flame or something-be sure to understand the safety info and bleed out the air to prevent a possible explosion.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1980_March_April/The_Genius_of_Jean_Pain
http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1980_May_June/Update_Mother_s_Compost_Heat_Experiments
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_pain.html
http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/VITAHTML/SUBLEV/EN1/BIOGAS3M.HTM
http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/VITAHTML/SUBLEV/EN1/BIOGAS.HTM

[Amanda_931]

Around here the rumor is that growing two loblolly pine crops on the same ground results in the soil being depleted.  I've always assumed that that has something to do with lack of mulch.

So it does strike me that Jean Pain's cleaning up his woods may be doing the same thing there, even if he can fuel everything from his house to his truck.

But it still looks fascinating.

[Daddymem]

HOA is home owners association-- can't let the tractor tire garden bring down the value of the land.  Sounds like your neighbors are OK.  I'm thinking about an area down the road where the neighbors in the HOA don't even allow an RV in the back yard if it shows over the fence, at least not without making a complaint about it.

Ah, now I see.  We actually live in an old summer vacation playland from the 20's.  Even as short a time back as I can remember, the population would double between full timers and summer people.  My neighborhood is still mostly summer cottages converted to year round homes.  Even my home at a paltry 620 sf got that "big" from a porch being enclosed and an addition in the 70's.  It wouldn't be so bad if someone thought out what they were doing ahead of time because every room has an odd shape and is just barely too small.  We would stay and remodel but there are three separate types of foundations on our home (1 of which is actually good) and just way too little room (4,000 sf lot) to fit a larger house, still have a yard for the kids, meet the setback requirements, and have a septic system.  We would have to build down then up.  I wouldn't be surprised to see someone buy this house, tear it down and build a mini-mcmansion, but we hope a family just starting out can use this house as a jump start to their life with such a "low" mortgage and home ownership. (this house has increased 2.5 times in value in the 7 years we have owend it! )  The association we belong to only deals with the beaches, ponds and rivers here (I can see ponds and rivers in three directions).

[glenn kangiser]

Amanda, I don't know about Jean Pain's place but around here the forest fires or fires set by the indigenous people would regularly take care of the brush and the trees would grow well and produce acorns and pine nuts for food.

Now with all the fire fighting equipment, the brush grows wild overtaking many of the areas and causing a great amount of fuel which will then burn hot enough to totally destroy the trees.  It seems that Pain's brush management would help the trees that he wishes to remain.   The compost left after his use of it for heat greatly improves the soil he spreads it on.  He plants crops in the composted areas but apparently does not replant the formerly brushy areas.

Daddymem, I understand your problem with the house remodel options.  My dads house was built a piece at a time -started out as a woodshed that became a house after my great uncles house burned down - The woodshed had a 6 foot high ceiling and the rest of the house got built around it with it becoming the kitchen.  To make matters worse it was built at the confluence of two streams and over the years has been continuously sinking into the soft permanently wet ground. I think my brother finally got enough foundation under it to float it in the last few years. :-/

[Amanda_931]

I lived in forest fire country when I was a kid--the pine woods in south central North Carolina, across the highway from Ft. Bragg.  At least once in my life I can remember running from a fire.  Batting it with pine branches--wet broom would have been more confidence-inspiring, but I didn't have one--to try to keep it from jumping the highway.

But IIRC, for the long-leaf pines (brought in from farther south for turpentine production, but mostly by then naturalized) fire is an essential part of their life--seeds don't germinate unless they've been through a fire, or something like that.

Destroying the soil to prevent forest fire doesn't make sense.  Destroying the mulch to feed a fire doesn't either.

There's no good answer, I'm afraid.  Damned if you do, and if you don't.