New Nortern Missouri Build - New Guy

[GSPDOG]

Hello folks been sitting reading and absorbing all the good information here.  So I thought I would post my own experience as well.  A little history spent 20 years in the USAF in Security Forces retired still work the pension is not that good  .  Bought 52 acres in Northern Missouri about 3 years ago with the plan being to move there when I do finally retire.  I train German Shorthair Pointers for hunting and competition.  I own I have three Scout, Blade and Hunter.  So I get to spend a lot of time with them on the farm and I have the farm registered with MDC as a private dog training area so I can train them year round.

The property was over grown and no water or electric over the past three years I have added both water and electric.  Last year we spent rebuilding a couple of blow out ponds since the drought here had them completely dried out.  Change of plan designed by mother nature.

So this year I am planning two building project.  One is a cabin the other is a barn. 





Current using a camper on the site.  The cabin will be a replacement for camper.  Planning on a 16 x 32.  I have included some of the plans I have been busy updating them and start the actual build this weekend.  This one is going to be a solo design and build.






I have more on the design I will upload later and I will keep everyone updated on progress and questions.  Thank you for all the good information I have read already.

[NavyDave]

Your plan sounds all too familiar! I'm doing the same thing and am a year into it....it's been very interesting and very rewarding. 

[GSPDOG]

Thanks for the welcome NavyDave.  It is that both reward and relaxing and I can do with the exercise.     Realized I had not put any of the interior design in.  I am working at keeping this as simple and self sustaining as possible.




I also went from 2 to 4 bee hives in the last two years.



Two of my boys Scout and his son Hunter.



For the cabin it is staked out I will post some pictures that that and the pier post going in this weekend.  With any luck and the weather improves I may be able to get the rim boards floor joist and flooring down.  That may be a little optimistic. 

[Remington760-308]

WHat year is the Chevy 1969+- .   Looks like the dogs are enjoying the pond you made..

[GSPDOG]

It is a '71 belonged to my Grandfather he bought it new when I was 11!  Geez that was a long time ago.  That was one the old pond before it completely dried out. The rebuilds are significantly deeper. ;-)   it is one of the reasons I can not get a concrete truck on the property.

[Redoverfarm]

   Looks like a nice area.  Lots of information here and it's all free for the asking.  Look forward to seeing your progress.

[MountainDon]

   What drawing program are you using? Are the details in the foundation sheet generated by the program?

[GSPDOG]

I am using Punch HLD Architecture Design 17.  It is a easy to use program you do not need drafting skills to use it.  I had minimal knowledge one year drafting class in High school in 1975 LOL. 

The details for things like the foundation and walls you see posted I had to draw manually using an add-on that is included in the power tools call a Section Detailer.  It is probably one of the most useful power tools included other than the landscaping tool. 

The detailer does have the ability to create a 2x12x16 floor joist and recreate it so you do not have to hand draw them all and you can adjust the size afterwards if you need to.  I have gone to creating the basic floor layouts and then using the detailer to detail out the sections.

PROS:  I like it gives you the flexibility of greater detail to specific sections, nice 3D options easy to use floor plan design.  It also includes a nice materials listing of your project and several other tools I probably will never use but nice to haves.  It also includes a landscape detailer that allows you to change the age of the plants so that tree my wife wants to plant next to the cabin I can logically and visually explain why it is not a good idea to have it that close.   It will give you a very solid basic building layout very quickly with all the options and modifications you could ever want for doors, windows, walls, foundations and roof styles. 

CONS:  The detailer does not allow me to measure in less than 1 inch increments, the floor plan part does, and maybe I have not figured that out yet but it is frustrating when you know the size of the lumber and want to get to those specific details.  Just have to remember a 6x6 post may actually be 5 1/2x5 1/2" and plan accordingly".   Roofing is a pain with this program.  if your going to do a standard hip roof with no modification it is great, want to make adjustments and modifications  add a porch not so much.  I spent more time doing that than I did detailing the foundation.  You can do it, it is just plain painful.

Cost wise it is fairly inexpensive like $30 I think is what I paid.  There is a professional version I used that a friend has it is about $300 but I did not see any functionality in that one that us DIY guys would use. 

Word of caution I find the roofing section to be sub par and it is something they need to fix the roofing details are not correct for trusses.  I am using Visual Analysis 10 for truss design however it is significantly more complicated to use.

I should also mention he core application has a nice overlay feature that shows only the floor plan, electrical plan and plumbing plan without everything else in the way, then you can look at them as a combined plan and see if there is any issues or adjustments that need to be made.  It has been good at showing me where I need to make adjustments which I would rather do now before a nail goes in a board.

[MountainDon]

For the price I guess it doesn't do any engineering; sizing of members like joists, rafters, beams, footings? But then all that is in the IRC so it wouldn't have to have that function. It's primarily a floor plan and aesthetics of design tool.

[GSPDOG]

That's a good description Don and thank you for the welcome.  For the details you see and the IRC comments I add those in as part of my research.  Visual Analysis will actually do the engineering calculations and is a nice tool I am currently using the 30 day trail version and it has some nice features.  Do not have enough experience to give a perspective on the product.  I am using AWC tools to check my things like load capacity and span widths.

I am putting the comments in the plans so 5 years from now when I want to know why I did something a specific way it will jog my memory.

[GSPDOG]

Wall plans finalized today.

[Carla_M]

I am trying to figure out the overall dimensions. The pictures aren't high enough resolution or maybe just too low a jpg quality, but I can't make the figures and print out. I think it's 16 feet wide?   Is the length about 30 - 32 feet?   That's about the size that would make me happy as long as I had a shed for all the junk I have. Maybe it would take a barn like you plan on.

Do you mind me asking some probably dumb questions?

Most everyone builds these small cabins with a loft and from my experience visiting a few they are all too hot upstairs all the time. I like the choice of no loft. There are one or two other projects here with just a main floor. Not too many though. But there are many variations in how to do of the parts that get me confused.

[GSPDOG]

Ask away,

Yes it will be 16x32 I decided to keep storage separate specifically in the barn.  Currently I am using a 40' container which will become incorporated into the barn and become a secure workshop.  Such as a 40x30 barn with 10'wings out each side one side open for equipment, plow planters etc. the other wing as an enclosed shop.

In the cabin I specifically decided to go without a loft and will more than likely go with an engineered scissors truss. across the 16 foot span, 16" OC.  Snow load is not bad in Northern Missouri, I say that but we had record snow fall this year. More than like a 4 or 5/12 pitch.  I would do a higher pitch if I was going to put a loft in or go with a barn style gable.

One word of caution on the containers, they weigh about 22,000 lbs (at least the 40 footer does) in my case they had to drop it at the front gate and we had to use two tractors and drag it to its current location.  When they tried driving it on the rig become stuck and he had to use his trailer hydraulics to pull himself out.  When I move it to its final position it will be sitting on gravel however there will be 6 - 8" wide concrete pillars in the ground 4' deep.  One on each corner and two in the midpoint to avoid any settling.

[Don_P]

George Carlin said, a house is a box where we store our junk. Barns do make sense.
Carla, starting a thread with questions on an idea would probably garner more responses.

[Squirl]

I may be reading it wrong.  The girders don't seem to size up.  Thoughts?

[Carla_M]

Well this was a challenge; getting online sort of in the middle of nowhere SW UT. Sitting on a ridge top above the campsite with a couple bars that I think is from a tower near Kanab. Woo-hoo! 

Hope your weekend is going as well as mine has so far.

I don't know, I have a feeling I'm about to stick my foot in my mouth. It's been there before, so I guess I'll open wide and take the plunge. I've been expecting at least one of the usual suspects here to ask this before me. So I'm sure I'm missing something, someplace, somehow.

I've read a whole lot on this forum about building and building design. I've noticed a diversity of methods. I notice two areas that develop controversy more than any others. Before starting my search for small home ideas and how they are made I thought all homes were built on concrete slabs or had basements or crawl spaces; I lived in all three. Then I encountered a lot of piers with beams when I started looking at owner built cabins. I see lots of controversy over their suitability, though. There's a lot of anecdotal eveidence, 'well i've seen lots that have stood for a hundred years...' vs the analytical explanations of the weak points. I thought I was understanding and now I'm uncertain again.   

I investigate certain things for a living. I look for patterns and anomalies to the patterns. When I read this topic for the first time the piers jumped out at me. The piers are like none I've seen before. When I first saw the drawing I said to myself, 'he's got bandages on the piers, wonder why?'  Funny me. I don't understand their purpose. Then I wondered what the 'skewers' were for; the rebar through the pier? I've not seen that done before either. I'm thinking this is something new and wonderful and easy to do and I wonder where the idea came from, how it is supposed to work for loads up and down and sideways.

I've spent hours trying to reconcile this with other information I've read and I come up perplexed. Like I said nobody else seems puzzled or bothered and so I'm going in circles and figure eights figuring I don't have the whole picture. I know I am missing some detail, some fact, something.

If I'm out of line give me a whack with a virtual 2x4. I'm just trying to figure things out. I know there are major parts of my potential cabin I will have to hire out.  When I go to hire someone I'll be better off if I know how a job should be done and be able to tell a snow job from a good job.

The campfire beckons,    and so does the box of wine.   

call dropped twice already, maybe the third time will be the charm 

[CjAl]

Mabey its too early and i am not far enough i to thisnpot of coffee but you kna lost me with bandages on piers and whatnot.

The biggestvproblem with piers is people not sizing thrm properly, not using enough of thrm, not bracing them or just flat out using thdm where they shouldnt be used. My soil is pure sand so i was aprehensive about using piers. in the end i ended up adding extra piers and widening out the base of thrm to increase thebsurface area. I think i used an 8'' sonotube for thebpier itself but the bottom of the hole is widened out to around 24''. I have three pieces of rebar bent at about 100 degrees with 18'' on the flat horizontal surface on the bottom of the hole and the rest extending up through the tube. This prvides reinforcment for the concrete on the horizontal and verticle. perhaps there was a better way but i believe this will work andni have seen it done before.

Piers is the most comon foundation you see here in south eastvtx. Some are very scarry. I see many houses built just sittingnon a stack of cinder blocks. Welcome to the land of no building codes. Remember this is huricane country too

[GSPDOG]

Carla_M  I post with a sincere hope for feedback suggestions or learning something from others experiences.   So I won't smack you with a virtual 2x4.

Good weekend but it was a wash literally, another inch of all day rain Saturday and Sunday but not going to complain considering how dry we were last year and all the new ponds are full. So you have to go with what nature gives you.

Piers and full foundations are a topic I have read what feels like 100's of post here on the subject.  We have been back and forth on this subject even with locals in our area.   When you look at homes built in specific areas you will see multiple soil related issues.  Eastern Missouri you find a number of problems with basement and slab foundations where there are massive vertical cracks in the wall due to the expansion of clay, improper soil compactions, improper drainage, poor quality concrete, cost savings by pouring 8" walls in an area that should have 9" walls and significant rebar.  Some of the homes we looked at had cracks 1/4" or larger.  One was so large there was no way it would pass inspection without the wall being torn out and rebuilt.

When I moved back to St Louis and moved into the St Charles area we looked at 20 - 30 homes and everyone of them had this issue including some newer (less than 5 years old) construction.  The home we finally decided on was over 20 years old was owned by the builder of this development and has 9 1/2' concrete walls with no cracks after 20 years.  He also put 9' ceilings in the basement. 

The reality is the broader the base (foundation) the better the weight distribution is the math shows us that and in a more practical application if you jack your car up in the yard with a hydraulic jack with a small base the jack will push itself in the ground.  Place a sheet of 3/4 2' x 2' ply wood under the jack int he same location it will compress in the ground but a majority of the lift will jack the car up.

So with that said most people would ask why am I using piers.  I have a couple of problems on the farm in Northern Missouri.  First being the front of my property first 5 acres has some grades as steep as 9% on tilt angle (real risk of a roll over for loaded heavy high profile vehicles).  During the heat of last summer the ponds completely dried up which gave me the opportunity to get gravel down (32 Tons) and we rebuilt the dam which we use to cross that area now.  Considering that a cubic yard of concrete can weigh as much as 3,300 - 4,000 lbs and that I need about 6 yards of concrete to pour a foundation for this project to do it right roughly 19,000 lbs of concrete (not including the weight of the truck approximately 26,000 lbs) across 500 feet of new gravel and a small pond dam.

So a couple of facts about the area.  We are just outside the impact zone of the of the New Madrid fault, the risk of an earth quake increases about 1-2% each year we are well over due 70%.  Source from the University of Missouri Columbia Extension Center.  So in the worst case of an 8.6 magnitude earthquake at the center of the New Madrid Fault our county is considered a risk level of VII. Source http://sema.dps.mo.gov/eq%20map.pdf.  That means in real terms I will have a hard time standing up and damage to well build building - slight to moderate.  Flooding damage at this location nearly none if I get flooded the rest of the state is going to be in really bad shape.  Tornado's and straight line winds are the number one threat and even that is limited if you look at the Tornado frequency tracking by the University of Missouri.  Winds I am less concerned about the prevailing westerly's for me are blocked at this location by some very well establish Hickory, Walnut and Oak trees.    Tornado's that's a different issue and is why we will have an underground storm shelter.  If you go back and look at the pictures of what happen in Joplin and what I experienced first hand with our Search and Rescue Dogs, no mater what foundation you build or how well it is attached a Tornado is just going to wreak devastation on everything.  Foundation will still be there but little else.

So I went about talking to some of my neighbors whose homes and pole barns (some over 100 years old) of how they were built and why they were able to survive so long.    So a couple of things appeared consistent in long standing level structures.  Regardless of foundation they were all 4 feet in the ground.  Structures with piers were all of a collared type with up lift post in the poles.  All the structures with old foundations in good condition had proper drainage built into place.  The ratio of above ground pier related to the in ground section never exceeded 50% of the buried depth.  Rim boards and floor joist were all 2x12.

So for me piers appeared to be a viable option for this area and property.  If any of the variables changed I would have probably gone with a preferred poured foundation.  So while I could probably assume 3,000 - 4,000 PSI on the soil as tested I have designed based on 2,000 (worst case), we have typically on this property 18" of top soil followed by clay sand mix with one deviation.  The front of the property sits on a sand stone rock formation that runs in a 2 mile wide strip for nearly 100 miles south west to north east with some occasional outcrops, I have 2 on my property which are part of the formation.  Putting fence post in the ground (4 feet deep) I have never hit this structure   

So the other common option would have been a block foundation.  I looked at that as an option however none of the ones in this area have survived very long.  Even Big Blue and Orange carry a very limited number of these blocks locally which I found to be telling by itself.

So on to my pier design.  6x6 post 4' in the ground, one of the details I left off I need to go back and add, (thank you for that) sometimes I do not see the forest for the trees
The holes will actually be a little deeper to allow for 2" clean gavel in the bottom and a 12" diameter concrete pad minimum of 3000 psi.   The post will have rebar run though in two locations on alternating side.  The post will sit on the concrete pad this back fill 25% (1') of the post with soil compacted, the next 50% (2') of concrete.  This is known as the collar.  The last 25% (1') again compacted soil.  Exposed above ground post 2' on east end and 4' on the west end.  The west end will have an 8' covered porch on the West, East  and North side.

I have actually removed a post of this type on my property had been there according to my neighbor as long as he had been there that that had been over 30 years.   I thought like some post on the property I would push it and A.  It would break off or B I could lift it out.  I actually had to dig 75% of the post out of the ground to pull it out.  It was in amazing condition considering how long it had been in the ground I have 2 more in my fence line and we just left them an incorporated them in the fence.

One of the take away and I am in the house of a poured foundation but I also think you have to adjust to your specific conditions and circumstances which takes a good deal of research and some of the best information can come from old timers.  Concrete work has come a long ways from when I was 16 working as a day laborer for my grandfathers construction company.

Hope the weekend went well.  Wine and a campfire sounds perfect.

[GSPDOG]

Mabey its too early and i am not far enough i to thisnpot of coffee but you kna lost me with bandages on piers and whatnot.

The biggestvproblem with piers is people not sizing thrm properly, not using enough of thrm, not bracing them or just flat out using thdm where they shouldnt be used. My soil is pure sand so i was aprehensive about using piers. in the end i ended up adding extra piers and widening out the base of thrm to increase thebsurface area. I think i used an 8'' sonotube for thebpier itself but the bottom of the hole is widened out to around 24''. I have three pieces of rebar bent at about 100 degrees with 18'' on the flat horizontal surface on the bottom of the hole and the rest extending up through the tube. This prvides reinforcment for the concrete on the horizontal and verticle. perhaps there was a better way but i believe this will work andni have seen it done before.

Piers is the most comon foundation you see here in south eastvtx. Some are very scarry. I see many houses built just sittingnon a stack of cinder blocks. Welcome to the land of no building codes. Remember this is huricane country too

I know what you mean I have seen some old work bungalows for migrant workers that were built in to 30's.  Most are tilted to one side or the other but they were meant at that time to house families during the harvest season.  Water is the killer for any foundations of any type.  Most of the ones I see with problems can usually be traced back to water.

[GSPDOG]

SO since the weather is not cooperating with my plans.   I went ahead an finished the roof system.  Yes I went in a different direction than originally planned.   So I went and looked at one of these in a prefab and while not the best construction the concept worked well and is a common roof system basically because it works.    

Carla_M I agree these can be hot all the time, I am going to spend some time to see if I can come up with a reasonable solution. It might be as simple as leaving it open at one end with a down draft ceiling fan.  On thing I have noticed about many lofts in the local area they are not designed with venting in mind.  none of the prefabs I have seen locally include any roof venting only side wall venting. 

At this point I am thinking about a ridge vent I and using Strongpanel metal roofing.  They make a ridge vent to run the entire length.  Vented between the rafter and protected with hardware wire on the inside should create a nice up draft and move eliminate heat and condensation.


Thoughts from anyone on roof systems?

[GSPDOG]

I know what you mean I have seen some old work bungalows for migrant workers that were built in to 30's.  Most are tilted to one side or the other but they were meant at that time to house families during the harvest season.  Water is the killer for any foundations of any type.  Most of the ones I see with problems can usually be traced back to water.

Found what I was looking for.  This was done out of a team in Texas and talks specifically to the Advantages and Disadvantages of various foundation systems.

http://www.foundationperformance.org/projects/FPA-SC-01-0.pdf

[Carla_M]

Carla_M  I post with a sincere hope for feedback suggestions or learning something from others experiences.   So I won't smack you with a virtual 2x4. ;
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Hope the weekend went well.  Wine and a campfire sounds perfect.

Wow! Lots to read there.  

Did you ever consider a PWF? It's something I've seen mentioned as an alternative to other foundations when concrete is not easy or desired.

The weekend was super! Hiked and climbed in some very cool slot canyons near Kanab. Never got lost, no injuries, nice primitive out of the way campsite; can't ask for more than that.

[Carla_M]

Found what I was looking for.  This was done out of a team in Texas and talks specifically to the Advantages and Disadvantages of various foundation systems.

http://www.foundationperformance.org/projects/FPA-SC-01-0.pdf

Loads of pages to read and digest in that. Might take a while.

I hope to never have to worry about expansive soils.

[Carla_M]

If I got this right the piers are based on observing older standing pole barn construction. I probably should not admit to this but I had no idea what a pole barn was. I knew a horse barn was where you lept horses, so... it did not add up.  I googled.    Now I know, and that got me thinking again, not always a good thing.

I think I see a difference between what I read about poles barns and what I see in your plan. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't?.

I found pole barns with poles extending from 2, 3, 4 feet deep in the ground and running up to the roofline. Your poles are short, stopping at the floor line. I guess that what makes them piers and not poles. Does this change matter?     I ask because sometimes concepts lose something when modified and they don't work as well as the original model.   I have a killer cake recipe, but if I left out the eggs it would not be the same. Not the best analogy maybe, but the best I could come up with. 

If I understand what is going on in a pole barn, at least ones with side walls, is that the walls tie the poles and everything together into a box structure. The walls help make it stiff and keep the poles ends in the dirt pointed where they should stay pointed. But when the long poles become short piers the whole thing loses that box on top that stiffens the pole legs. There's a dividing line at the floor line. So are the piers now freer to move in the dirt because they don't have long upper ends with the barn box on top?  I don't know if I'm making that clear or if it matters or not?

[Carla_M]

Thoughts from anyone on roof systems?

I've visited two cabins that were prefab sheds with roofs like that. They were miserably hot inside in summer. Is that an easy roof to build yourself safely? It does provide more loft headroom than the gable. Maybe it can be better done if purpose designed and built for a cabin instead of a shed?

And I guess you have to like or tolerate the barn look.     I'm not sure on that aspect.  I love windows and windows on the sides would mean dormers which means a little more design and a little more construction. It's a balancing act.