Hello and Questions

Started by stoneturtle, April 03, 2010, 12:00:53 PM

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stoneturtle

Hi.  My husband and I are looking at retirement in the not-too-distant future.  It's been a hard decade for us, like many others, and we don't have what we expected to have to work with at this point.  My father says he'll let us put something on his farm (which is in KY, 400 miles from here), and we're looking for something we can do with as little outside help as possible. 

We'd decided to build something sort of modular, building panels in our garage over time and then hauling them down so we could get a house up and waterproofed in one vacation.  In fact that's how I found this site, my web search turned up the article here about the lady with the babies who built her house just that way.  It's good to know it's been done!

I'm not sure what part of his farm he has in mind, but I believe it's going to be on a hill with rocky limestone outcroppings.  There's a barn there with power and water so there won't be a long run for that, which is good.  The only code for the area is that you have to have a septic system put in and signed off.  This is probably a good thing, since when I was growing up there, everyone just dumped their waste into ditches behind the house, if they had indoor plumbing at all.  It sure was a great place to dig up fat happy worms for fishing!

We're pretty sure we're going to get the 20x30 one-story plans from here. 

Anyway, I've been researching foundations, looking for something quick, cheap, and easy enough that we could do it ourselves.  I'd found the ready-made concrete piers set atop crushed rock columns, and I really liked the sound of that.  I've read the foundation page here, and also forum postings.  There seems to be some concern on this forum about the suitability in soils with high clay content.  I don't know what the soil will be like in our spot, but chances are pretty good for red clay.

What we'd planned was to put in a column of small gravel, then 4 rectangular paving stones in layers of 2m stacked 90 degrees from each other, then a small 12" square concrete pier with a 4x4 coming out of that.  We were thinking of putting them 4' apart, with builtup beams atop that upon which to build the house.  So here's a couple of questions, so I can begin to understand better.

1.  If one digs down below the frost line, would the crushed stone column be ok?  I'm not sure how gravel would be affected by frost heave, it seems like the ground around it could move and the gravel would just rearrange itself.
2.  If you hit bedrock, you don't need to worry about frost, right?  And the gravel would be just fine.


Thank you in advance for your help!

Lora


Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)

John Raabe

The 20x30 1-story cottage comes with a pier foundation option but not the same gravel pad and preformed pier block as used in the Little House plans. This larger house has a poured concrete tube or PT post bearing on a footing of concrete or crushed rock at frost level.

This is a more substantial design and provides some uplift protection and better resistance to wind and earthquake forces. However, if either of those two maladies are a strong design issue for your location you would be better off building the slab or crawlspace foundation (also in the plans).
None of us are as smart as all of us.


stoneturtle


No, no earthquakes.  And not much wind down in that valley. 

A hole will have standing water pretty quickly, it's a green, wet place.  Rocky though, and I'm pretty sure we will hit bedrock on that hill before we get 24" deep, which is the frost-line in that county.

Most old houses had foundations built of limestone rocks picked up in the field.  If there was any mortar to it, it was long gone by the time I was paying any attention.  I remember playing in the crawlspaces and seeing the piers built up of these rocks underneath.  They lasted forever...you can still find old foundations standing in the woods, the cabins long gone.  They were generally very small, though.  My grandmother raised 13 kids in a house with 4 tiny rooms.  I don't know how deep those piles went.  I'd always assumed they were just on top of the ground but it seems unlikely now.





Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)

glenn kangiser

w* to the forum, Lora.  

Sounds like a nice place to build.  We'd like to see pix when you get a chance.  

Looking at what the locals have done gives you a bit more insight on what works in the area.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

stoneturtle

Thanks for the welcome!

We'll be going down there for a visit in June, and we'll find out exactly where he means for us to build.  I'll get more pictures then.  This is the only picture I have of it now, my parents and me, with the hill starting far in the background.  You can't tell from this pic but it's a big hill.  From its bald top you can see forever, over the tops of many lesser hills.  I always wanted a house up on that bald spot but it's not to be.  It'd just cost too much.  Besides, it gets awfully windy up there, and maybe we'll be happier snug down in the hollow in our dotage!



The barn with water/power is out of the frame to the left.  You can see how rocky it is.  The flatland at the forefront of the hill is out of the question, I'd think, since there's just not very much flat land on the farm and it's used for crops, or hay these days probably, he doesn't grow money crops anymore.  Anyway, water stands in there when the water table gets high every few years.

Dad told me how far the utilities would be run for hookup without charge, but I've forgotten.  I want to say 750'.  Then after that it gets crazy.  So we're not going to get too awfully far from that barn!



Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)


glenn kangiser

Nice --  


Lots of materials for rock walls in a garden or around raised beds.  I prefer being on the hillside rather than the flat.  

Wind could be good for a wind/solar power system if the utilities get too unreasonable, but the grid is the easiest.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

stoneturtle

Here's some very old pictures showing the foundations I remember.  1930s and 40s I guess (it's my dad in both pictures).  I don't think they used any mortar of any kind because they looked just the same when I was around. 




There would be piers built of these same rocks all throughout underneath the houses.  It was a cool place to play on summer days and nearly every kid I knew had a little fort/playhouse/hideout under the house.  The dogs would be curled up under there on hot days too.  Since it's hill country, the crawlspace under the front of the house would usually be quite tall enough for us to sit up under and even sometimes walk under hunched over.  I guess the fact that the adults couldn't get in there as easily made it extra cool.





Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)

stoneturtle

I was just thinking, those stones look like they've been roughly dressed, don't they.  Imagine the effort.
Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)

stoneturtle

Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 03, 2010, 06:07:37 PM
Wind could be good for a wind/solar power system if the utilities get too unreasonable, but the grid is the easiest.

Dad and I discussed putting a wind turbine or two up there on Old Baldy and bringing the power down to both houses.  I'm a little worried about the big ol' towers though.  We'd definitely need to get help with those.

The idea tickled him though.  My husband and I are going to go to a renewable energy fair they have here in St. Louis and see what we can learn.

Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)


Redoverfarm

stoneturtle that type of foundation was common practice years ago.  Cheaper than concrete and redily available on site.  One of the biggest downfalls was that normally there was no excavation of the top soil and seldom down to the frost/freeze level then over time the stones would slowly settle allowing he sill beams to come in contact with the ground and ultimately rot.  I have found this was common in log constructed housing which were built prior to the modern age of concrete.  The secret was to build it up several courses and if it did settle it would not be enough to allow contact with the soil.  But then there was uneven settling which usually caused the sloped floors which were very common.

stoneturtle

Interesting.  It makes sense.  Most the houses in the area were originally log cabins, and if you pulled off the clapboard you'd find the logs still there on the original parts of the house.  But you never saw one that had a sound floor by the time I was around, I suspect because of frost heave and the settling you speak of.  I should say, they'd creak and have give in them.  Which is pretty good for houses over a hundred years old built by a farmer's hand, if you think about it.

I'm always amazed by the things they built with nothing at all but basic hand tools and their own strength and ingenuity. Even in my childhood, I remember helping (no boys in my generation until after I was grown, all girl cousins, so I was always out with Dad working) my dad and uncle raise a big tobacco barn, from cutting and dragging the trees, cutting out the boards and beams, right down to splitting the hundreds of 2"x2"x4' sticks that would be used to hang the tobacco out of oak logs with a sledge and wedges.  But they had chainsaws and tractors!  Imagine when it was a crosscut saw and a mule!

Now, realistically, our retirement cottage doesn't have to last long, as houses go, but I'd rather not have the floor give way under my walker.   :) 

I was hoping that some of you guys could look at what folks used to do and maybe give me some clues, based on what you saw, about what sort of foundation would probably be best in this sort of countryside that we can do ourselves.  When I was a kid, people built foundations that were of concrete blocks all around the perimeter of the building.  Nowadays some are built with pads.  But I think either of those options mean hiring someone.  Maybe there isn't anything simple and easy and we're going to have to pay someone, but you guys are so creative, maybe you can think of something!







Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)

glenn kangiser

Nice old pix, Lora.  

Some times the stones are pretty well formed into layers that lend themselves well to stacking.  There is always some work involved though.  I have done quite a few stone walls - with the assistance of my Bobcat though.  I am basically pretty lazy. :)

I put up my own wind generator tower using a gin pole - I built the tower based on the Bergey tower design, but did it myself out of scrap for around $2000 less money - it cost me about $150 or so for the home made tower.  Wire and other stuff was extra though.  Bergey makes pretty decent wind generators.  I am a dealer for them but have not sold any but my own.  We are not in a great wind area but it works great as assistance for my solar panels.

My tower is 85 feet tall.  Generator is 1000 watts.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

stoneturtle

Wow, that's not too bad.  How deep did you have to dig a footing for it?  I've got this thing in my head from somewhere that as high up as you build a tower, that's how deep you have to build a foundation for it, but I think that's for Gothic cathedrals or something.  Not sure where I picked it up...something someone forced me to read sometime I suppose!  Ha!

I'm gonna think on a way to get an average windspeed over time measured on top of that hill and see if it'd be worth it.  I understand telemetry a lot better than foundations.

;D
Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)

glenn kangiser

Wind speed about 100 feet upo is about three times that on the ground due to turbulence caused by trees, land, bldgs, other obstacles.

Foundation - would you believe there is not a real foundation.  Just about an 18x18 steel plate with two ears and a double pivot pin - one for the gin pole and one for the tower.  There are about four 3 foot long steel stakes driven down into the ground through the plate to anchor it for raising the mast but gravity does most of the work.

I put it together with 4" thinwall pipe screwed together every 20 feet with a slip collar washer on top each 20 foot joint.  The collar has 4 chain links welded to it - one to each corner to attach guy wires to.  It has an extra 5' on top to which the generator is mounted.  The Bergey has slip rings so the cables just go directly down the center of the pipe tower and is anchored at the top near the generator.

I carried about 2000 lb average boulders to the anchor locations with my John Deere track loader and drilled 8 inch holes in them, placing eyebolts with epoxy in them for cable guy anchors.  The cables keep the tower from tipping over in the wind and I readjust them every few years if needed to keep them tight.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.


stoneturtle

I guess with guy wires tied to boulders like that you wouldn't need to dig in at all, you'd just not want the pole to be able to work itself down into the ground, so that's why the plate works.  Yeah?

I lived in the San Gabriels out there in California for several years.  The soil wouldn't hold a tent peg in a good rain (which we found out just as you'd expect we did, ugh).  Tying the wires to rocks was a good idea.

You're making it sound doable, Glenn.

Lora
(Planning to build in Pulaski County, KY)