all day kindergarten

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Around here there has been a lot of talk lately about all-day kindergarten.  I am unaware of any research supporting the idea for educational purposes... most 5 year olds can learn more in 20 minutes playing in the woods than they could sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day.  IMO, it is nothing more than government-sanctioned, taxpayer-funded daycare.  Of course, it'll take another penny in sales tax to fund it, and a year or two later they'll be hollering for more money.  Now, I know that there are a lot of people who can't wait every year for school to start so they can ship their kids off and get them out of their hair for a while, but there's a good number too who don't want to do it, but go along with it because they somehow believe that they should leave 'education' to the "professionals".  At what point did folks in this country quit seeing education as a parental responsibility and start seeing it as a governmental one?  And of course, if I don't support the idea of all-day kindergarten, does that mean I can opt out of paying an extra penny sales tax to send everyone else's kids to daycare?  Not in your life.  It's a crock.  OMMV.  I want to withdraw from society, live in holes, and wear live animals as hats, that's what.

[glenn kangiser]

I agree, Homey.  Government wants to start the programming early.  Get them to salivate like Pavlovs dog when the the bells and whistles go off.  Program them to follow the mascot as their unquestioned leader, right or wrong, win or lose.

Unquestioningly run from room to room as bells and whistles go off and answer to each little authority figure who is judge and jury over the sheeplike children.  They must follow - they don't know why.  They must not question - they don't know why.  They must follow the approved curriculum, they don't know why.  They will be taught that certain lifestyles are normal and that they should approve and even participate if the opportunity arises.  It is normal.  It is OK.  It is government approved and mommy and daddy if you have one, is wrong and can be jailed if they object or tell you it is not OK.

This will continue onn through their lives where college will prepare them to become government funded scientist and politicians or cannon fodder for the unending oil and power wars of the elite. 

It all starts at government kindergarden and parents kept too busy by the system to be able to raise their children.

[Sassy]

Watch Century of Self - Freud, Freud's daughter, Bernaise, Dewey - mind control, marketing, programming - call it what you want - the earlier you start it, the more sheep like the person will be... 

When the 13th ammendment passed - we got the Federal Reserve & then the 16th ammendment, we got the IRS - both private entities that have enslaved us requiring both parents to work in most cases - so all day kindergarten is just the ticket!

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=140

[Mad Dog]

Glenn, the more I read your remarks in these threads, the more I think I'm a younger version of you.   Of course, that also includes me being better looking as well, and with a full head of hair.

[Daddymem]

All day kindergarten was one of the best choices we made, and we are a one paycheck family.  In our Town there is the option of all day or half day.  By the time first grade came around, our son was way ahead of the other kids who didn't go all day (and with the idiot Bush's No Child Left Behind crap he'll need all the help he can get).  It definitely is not daycare, nor is it a crock. 

[Sassy]

I can say that one of my granddaughters attended kindergarten in public school & she was reading 1st-2nd grade level, doing some math etc - so at least as far as that goes, it was helpful - she only attended 1/2 days & she loves to play with her friends at school...  it's a hard call - some schools are better than others & there are excellent teachers as well as poor teachers - just like in anything else.  It just scares me about some of the stuff they are required to teach now to be politically correct...

[muldoon]

My daughters kindergarten class was all day two years ago and I think it helped.  She adjusted to the schedule very quickly, made friends, learned and the school helped us instill a love of reading in her.  Your right it cant be a one way street, schools are lousy day cares for half day or full day at any grade level if that is all they can offer.  But if the parents are working with the school, and the child is challenged (while still enjoying it) then how is it a bad thing?  Sure some parents see it as a day care, that's too bad.  Those kids will be mowing our kids lawns someday. 

Glenn, unless I misunderstood you, I believe I disagree with you on this one.  I don't believe participating in the community is a character flaw.  One can still think for oneself, challenge nonsense, and retain their freedoms even if they participate in society.  Growing up with aspirations of being a scientist is also not a bad thing.  I strongly encourage both of my children to participate in the world, and understanding science and seeking knowledge everywhere they look is part of that. 

[Redoverfarm]

Whether it be pre-school, kindergarten or any grades above I think the earlier a child learns to use his mind is a great thing. Although the times have changed and the value system or the lack of really concerns me.  It has changed so much from years ago and that system is what is being deployed.  Thank goodness that I have my children home for 16 hours remaining in the day to try to correct what they have learned in the other 8 hours.   

[NM_Shooter]

Did you watch McCain's speech last night?  He implied that he thought that our education system needed some big changes.  (paraphrasing)He said he wanted to pay good teachers what they were worth, and wanted to help poor teachers find another profession.  He also implied something about giving parents more options in educating their kids... I seem to have thought that he also was implying that the might be some sort of homeschool / private school credit in the works. 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree, Homey.  Government wants to start the programming early.  Get them to salivate like Pavlovs dog when the the bells and whistles go off.  Program them to follow the mascot as their unquestioned leader, right or wrong, win or lose.

Unquestioningly run from room to room as bells and whistles go off and answer to each little authority figure who is judge and jury over the sheeplike children.  They must follow - they don't know why.  They must not question - they don't know why.  They must follow the approved curriculum, they don't know why.  They will be taught that certain lifestyles are normal and that they should approve and even participate if the opportunity arises.  It is normal.  It is OK.  It is government approved and mommy and daddy if you have one, is wrong and can be jailed if they object or tell you it is not OK.

This will continue onn through their lives where college will prepare them to become government funded scientist and politicians or cannon fodder for the unending oil and power wars of the elite. 

It all starts at government kindergarden and parents kept too busy by the system to be able to raise their children.

*clap* *clap* *clap* 

[akemt]

You can be "In the world" without being "of the world", in response to the comment about Glenn saying we shouldn't be part of society.  He isn't saying that, he's saying we don't have to be led like sheep...that parents should be the ones to decide what is best and have the opportunity to teach their own children.  If you choose to give the government your endorsement for schooling your children, that is fine by me, I just don't like being coerced into doing so by paying for everyone else's schooling AND THEN paying for homeschooling on top of that because I don't agree with what is being taught, how, and by whom.  Being homeschooled DOES NOT mean you leave society.  Though considering society these days, many of us want to do just that! 

Homegrown,  (and anyone else interested in learning about our education system) if you want to know how it all started, I'd suggest reading "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Ghatto.  It is a full-on history, so don't think it'll be light reading, but it'll blow your mind where our education system comes from.  I just don't agree with him that all the parts fell together by chance.  Read Plato's Socrates works--government paternalism was around then...nasty thing that it is.  Hey, and if you want some more homeschooling ease (I don't know where you are), you might consider a move to Alaska.  I have a new friend who just left CA and moved here for homeschooling.  Atleast here you can get money back from the State (though less than half what a school does, for sure) to use towards homeschooling.  They still put nasty tags on it like you can't use it to buy anything religious, but for now it is better than nothing.

Kudos to all who are pioneering once again as our founding fathers and their parents once did...may our outcome eventually parallel theirs.

[glenn kangiser]

Glenn, the more I read your remarks in these threads, the more I think I'm a younger version of you.   Of course, that also includes me being better looking as well, and with a full head of hair.

Mad Dog, I liken a full head of hair to a yard full of grass.  Grass won't grow where things are moving, but it grows great on a pile of sh-t.

...and I have found that being good looking is not all that it is cracked up to be if you ever travel through San Francisco.

[glenn kangiser]

All day kindergarten was one of the best choices we made, and we are a one paycheck family.  In our Town there is the option of all day or half day.  By the time first grade came around, our son was way ahead of the other kids who didn't go all day (and with the idiot Bush's No Child Left Behind crap he'll need all the help he can get).  It definitely is not daycare, nor is it a crock. 

Obviously there must be a good side to the story too.  I can't be 100% right all of the time I guess.

My daughters kindergarten class was all day two years ago and I think it helped.  She adjusted to the schedule very quickly, made friends, learned and the school helped us instill a love of reading in her.  Your right it cant be a one way street, schools are lousy day cares for half day or full day at any grade level if that is all they can offer.  But if the parents are working with the school, and the child is challenged (while still enjoying it) then how is it a bad thing?  Sure some parents see it as a day care, that's too bad.  Those kids will be mowing our kids lawns someday. 

Glenn, unless I misunderstood you, I believe I disagree with you on this one.  I don't believe participating in the community is a character flaw.  One can still think for oneself, challenge nonsense, and retain their freedoms even if they participate in society.  Growing up with aspirations of being a scientist is also not a bad thing.  I strongly encourage both of my children to participate in the world, and understanding science and seeking knowledge everywhere they look is part of that. 

I see both of your points and yes -- you've got me on part of this -- it's not all bad, but I think any negative influences that are instilled by government P/C values that are different than yours should be carefully and clearly explained to the children.

[glenn kangiser]

Whether it be pre-school, kindergarten or any grades above I think the earlier a child learns to use his mind is a great thing. Although the times have changed and the value system or the lack of really concerns me.  It has changed so much from years ago and that system is what is being deployed.  Thank goodness that I have my children home for 16 hours remaining in the day to try to correct what they have learned in the other 8 hours.  

There you go John.  I just hadn't read that far and had not fully thought out my statements.  Well said.

[glenn kangiser]

I agree, Homey.  Government wants to start the programming early.  Get them to salivate like Pavlovs dog when the the bells and whistles go off.  Program them to follow the mascot as their unquestioned leader, right or wrong, win or lose.

Unquestioningly run from room to room as bells and whistles go off and answer to each little authority figure who is judge and jury over the sheeplike children.  They must follow - they don't know why.  They must not question - they don't know why.  They must follow the approved curriculum, they don't know why.  They will be taught that certain lifestyles are normal and that they should approve and even participate if the opportunity arises.  It is normal.  It is OK.  It is government approved and mommy and daddy if you have one, is wrong and can be jailed if they object or tell you it is not OK.

This will continue onn through their lives where college will prepare them to become government funded scientist and politicians or cannon fodder for the unending oil and power wars of the elite. 

It all starts at government kindergarden and parents kept too busy by the system to be able to raise their children.

*clap* *clap* *clap* 

...and yet some see what I am pointing out.

The military aspect stood out like a sore thumb as I was working at Santa Maria School putting handrails in for the outdoor theater. 

Yes --- I am a whore and sell myself out to the system for money too.   It just shouldn't have to be like this...

[glenn kangiser]

You can be "In the world" without being "of the world", in response to the comment about Glenn saying we shouldn't be part of society.  He isn't saying that, he's saying we don't have to be led like sheep...that parents should be the ones to decide what is best and have the opportunity to teach their own children.  If you choose to give the government your endorsement for schooling your children, that is fine by me, I just don't like being coerced into doing so by paying for everyone else's schooling AND THEN paying for homeschooling on top of that because I don't agree with what is being taught, how, and by whom.  Being homeschooled DOES NOT mean you leave society.  Though considering society these days, many of us want to do just that! 

Homegrown,  (and anyone else interested in learning about our education system) if you want to know how it all started, I'd suggest reading "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Ghatto.  It is a full-on history, so don't think it'll be light reading, but it'll blow your mind where our education system comes from.  I just don't agree with him that all the parts fell together by chance.  Read Plato's Socrates works--government paternalism was around then...nasty thing that it is.  Hey, and if you want some more homeschooling ease (I don't know where you are), you might consider a move to Alaska.  I have a new friend who just left CA and moved here for homeschooling.  Atleast here you can get money back from the State (though less than half what a school does, for sure) to use towards homeschooling.  They still put nasty tags on it like you can't use it to buy anything religious, but for now it is better than nothing.

Kudos to all who are pioneering once again as our founding fathers and their parents once did...may our outcome eventually parallel theirs.

Great points and well said, Catherine.

Yes -- we can't get out of it but if we want to we can still learn to think for ourselves and hopefully instill our values over the twisted values today's government schools feel it is important to smash into our childrens minds. 

Take time to clear up the confusion when your values are contradicted.  Government wants to gray the lines to please everyone.  Show your children things clearly in black and white.  Not racially of course -- kids are all the same color until we taint their view.  I mean -- make  good values clear to them.  Show them your view of right and wrong.  Listen to them.  Answer their questions.
 
Earn their respect.  It isn't a given.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Thankfully Oklahoma is a great state as far as homeschool is concerned.  However, I refuse to accept any government money for educating my kids based on principle.  Government controls always follow government money.  Sure it isn't fair to send hard-earned dollars off to educate everyone else's kids in the public schools, but until we can opt out of paying taxes that support things we don't agree with, what can  I do?  If the government gives me vouchers or money for alternative education, government control will follow. 

For those of you who had your kids in all day kindergarten and it helped them, I'm glad.  It's just that I've taught both of my big girls to read at home, usually in no more than a half hour a day, and my (barely) 4YO and my 5YO are already reading at a solid second grade level.   My younger one has been reading since before she was three.  The way they learn is the same as the way we live.  There is no disconnect between "learning time" and "cooking time" or "cleaning time" or "gardening time" or "vacation time" or even play time.  My kids have a lot of friends, and good ones.  They are involved with other groups of kids, and are very social; the difference is that they are just as comfortable talking to an 80-year-old or playing with a baby as they are with kids their own age.  I  just don't like the idea of having to pay (via taxes) for other kids to go spend all day at school... to a degree (and you are all free to argue with me) I think it encourages parental irresponsibility. 

[ScottA]

HG how will you decide what version of history to teach them?

[glenn kangiser]

Good question as everyone knows it keeps changing.

I had this thought.

I went to kindergarten in California when I was a kid, and look how well I turned out.

We lived in California from '54 to '58.  I did kindergarten and 1st grade here.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

That's a very good question, Scott, and one that's not easily answered.  I will probably opt for using ancient books and a variety of them.... there are a lot of revisionist history books that are so off the wall now that I'll most likely lean on older books.  The same is true for much in the way of literature... had a text book in college that was written from the so-called "gay theory" perspective (no kidding, it really does exist) and the short bio on each writer chronicled in the book inevitably would mention that this or that writer (and it was every single one!!!) struggled with their gender identity, their sexuality, or was a closet homosexual.  And I mean every one of them, according to this text.... Phyllis Wheatly to T. S. Elliot to Robert Frost, you name it.  It was so ridiculous that I busted up laughing out loud while perusing Jonathan Edward's bio during a boring lecture one time.

[Sassy]

When I was majoring in journalism & literature years ago (back in the early 70's) every book & story was dissected with Freud's psychological interpretation - it was so stupid, I used to think - no I don't think that author was thinking of sex or a phallic symbol when he wrote about the snow covered mountain...  weird stuff... 

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

FWIW, I went to public schools.  I even went to kindergarten (half day back then, morning only, and our teacher was usually late but got away with it because she was the principal's wife.)  I remember wanting to quit school after just a few days of kindergarten because our teacher was teaching the kids the ABCs and numbers to something like ten.  I'd been bugging mom wanting to go to school for two years because I could read and write and count to over a hundred.  Our teacher informed us that we didn't need to know any of the shapes besides circles, squares, and triangles until we were in "at least the third grade."  I had to stand in the corner for asking why she didn't know about hexagons, trapezoids, ovals, etc.  Even though I didn't learn a heck of a lot from public school (I credit my mom and Grandpa with most of the true education I received) it was a different place then.  I learned the Lord's Prayer from my first grade teacher and we sang "My Country 'Tis of Thee" every morning, which was in the hymn books at church, too.  <<Quick! Somebody call the ACLU!>>  Our band director led us in prayer before every concert, contest, parade, or football game; nobody was ever forced to participate, or even to be quiet or respectful while we prayed, and some kids didn't join in, and weren't treated any differently for it.  My high school math teacher always said it was his goal to teach us to think and learn, and that if he couldn't teach us that, no amount of calculus or trig would be worth anything, and boy, did he work us hard and make us think!  

However, it was NOT all good, either.  When I was in grade school, over and over, they'd have votes to up the sales tax "for the school".  My grandparents, registered democrats at that time, would always vote for it because it was "for education".  Yet, there were seldom improvements in the quality of education.  In fact, one time after just such a sales tax increase, our school building was condemned for lack of maintainence, and we had to relocate all the classes in that building into any vacant corner of the other buildings... I spent my entire 5th grade year having class in an old ramshackle house (unheated!) across the street from the school.  It had been used as storage for several years, and the floor at the back of the house was falling through, so we had to sit at the front of the room and weren't allowed in the area behind the teacher's bookshelves because there was a huge gaping hole in the floor.  If it got too cold, we had a little electric space heater that we'd turn on and huddle around, in our coats.  Never had a new text book, and never did I see them getting rid of teachers who were lousy, or worse yet, downright dangerous.  During my school career there, from K all the way to 12th grade, I remember such scandals that occupied our time more than studies.... for instance, when the school superintendant was caught in the school board room having an affair with the postmaster's wife  (who happened to live on our road.)  There was the time we got to school early one morning to find our principle being arrested for rape of a minor.  There was the girls' softball coach (who didn't know the difference between mass and weight) who ran off across state lines with a 15-year-old girl (and his poor 16YO daughter was in my class at the time.)  Then there was the grade school principal who was cheating on his wife in the school and got walked in on by a couple of innocent little kids.  I had a high school history teacher harrass me openly (the kind of thing that would at the very least get him slapped with a lawsuit now) for more than a year, mainly belittling me because I was a Christian, and saying all sorts of perverted stuff to me because I would just sit there and take it while my whole face turned six shades of red.  There was the senior English teacher who gave me a 'B' on my term paper even though she couldn't find even one error in my writing because I didn't like The Grapes of Wrath and wrote a paper about all the flaws in it.  When I asked for the justification for the points taken off, she just said that if I didn't think that it was great literature, then there was just no way she could give me an "A".  After all, she said, EVERYONE else thinks that it is great literature.  Of the kids I went to school with for 13 years, I have only one from my class that I am still in contact with and would consider a real friend.  

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Which brings me to another point in my rant: socialization.  In sixth grade, six boys in my class overdosed on diet pills mixed with vodka on the playground and ended up having to be hauled off in ambulances during class.  They were falling out of their desks and convulsing, and it was absolutely terrifying.  We thought they were all going to die.  In seventh grade, my shy science teacher thought it would be good practice for those of us going to the state junior academy of science competition to have us give our presentations in front of the speech class.  She stood by while the speech teacher chewed me out for pronouncing the word "was" as "wuz" instead of "waaassss"  (come on, lady, nobody talks like Cary Grant!)  The woman invited her class to boo and hiss and try to distract me while I presented, and every time I slipped and said "wuz", she'd make me start over from the beginning.  Trying to settle my nerves, I said, "OK" and took a deep breath before starting the 100th time.  She hissed, "Don't say 'OK'."  Of course, I nervously replied, "OK."     This went on for a while, and by the end of the hour, I was in tears and had broken out in hives, even though I was normally fairly confident in public speaking; it took several years before I could say as much as "hello" to a room full of people without turning red or breaking out in hives.  AND.... why do people think it is normal to segregate kids by age??  In real life, what situation will you ever have where everyone you work with is the same age, or even the same generation?  The truth is, you'll eventually have to deal with old farts and young whippersnappers... from the younger ones, you learn to be a leader and from the old ones you gain wisdom.  It is truly unnatural to spend most of your waking moments with kids that are no more than a year older or younger than you (with the exception of that one kid who'd been held back so many years that he was 17 years old in the 7th grade).  I saw my first drug deal in art class in 9th grade.  In 9th grade, one of the girls in my art class came back to school after being out for a doctor's appointment, and I asked if she was OK, to which she told me nonchalantly that it had just been an abortion, as if she'd had her teeth cleaned, and she wasn't even sure which guy was the dad.  Every cuss word I ever learned the meaning of, I heard first at school.  Over and over again I bailed out a kid named John who would get beaten up by the other boys.  Couldn't tell you how many times I tried to peel the duck tape off of his face without hurting him worse, or loaned him a pair of flip-flops from my truck because the guys had thrown his shoes out the bus window; he was irritating and got on everyone's nerves to an extent, but there was no justification for the teachers who knew what went on and did nothing to stop it.  I remember trying to stay immersed in a book when a couple of lusty teens were having sex in the back of the school bus on a field trip; the chaperones on the trip were sleeping, and the bus driver was busy watching the road.  If that's the socialization my kids are missing out on in the public schools, no thanks... I'll keep my unsocialized homeschoolers!  As my old band teacher said when I went to see him a few weeks before he retired, "It ain't the good old days anymore."  Now, if he thought the days back when I was in school were the "good ol' days" I cringe at the thought of what it was like by the time he retired a few years ago.

Alright... got it out of my system for the night, I guess.  Sorry.  I tend to get on my soap box about this.  I understand that there are folks who can't homeschool, and even some who shouldn't, and this isn't meant to condemn anyone who chooses to send their kid to school at a public school.  But for those who have no choice but public schools, there should be something better... I think the whole system is broke and needs to be revolutionized, if it is to exist at all.  My mom was a single mom with no child support, so I really didn't have any other option; Mom did the very best that she could to de-program any crap I came home with.  I guess that is why that DH and I feel so strongly that if we at all can afford for one of us to stay home and teach our own kids, then we should and will make the sacrifices necessary to do so.  An extra penny on the dollar sales tax doesn't seem like so much until you start adding up all your groceries and so forth, and then consider that Oklahoma already has a fairly high sales tax to begin with.  For years, all we have done is throw more and more money at the school system, and year after year, the graduates we are turning out as a nation are less literate, less civically and politically active, and less able to survive off of what they learned than they were in the years before the spending got so high.  Another day in another thread I'll try to give you numbers to back up what I'm saying... too tired right now to go dig them up.  For now, I need to hit the sack.


Woo-hoo... do I get bonus points?  I just went over the required 5000 words for my essay!

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

When I was majoring in journalism & literature years ago (back in the early 70's) every book & story was dissected with Freud's psychological interpretation - it was so stupid, I used to think - no I don't think that author was thinking of sex or a phallic symbol when he wrote about the snow covered mountain...  weird stuff... 

Ain't that the truth, Sassy!  I had one weird American literature teacher who really liked the whole Freudian world view.  I remember some of the far-fetched theories about some of the stuff he had us read.  I remember thinking that if he was right, all the authors we read were sex-crazed deviates, and if he was wrong, he was!   


Yikes!  I really need to go to bed.... it is nearly midnight and I got on my soap box and got all worked up for a sermon and now don't want to settle down and go to sleep. 

[glenn kangiser]

Nice essay, I am very much like you, Homey.  OK -- not as good looking.

I was probably more obnoxious than you, but had no real friends there - and was generally one of the more picked on by the school bullies.  One went to prison and straightened up pretty well.

The other one later killed a kid with an overdose of drugs he sold him -- he was a dealer.  He is dead now -- OD'ed himself.  Good riddance - maybe I'll look up his grave when I go up there and do a dance on it.

I don't need any of them.