Basement heater for freeze prevention?

AdironDoc · November 12, 2012, 08:01:41 AM

Now that temps are dropping quickly, I'm looking at the options for winterizing. Anti-freeze, draining lines, and compressed air blow-out of the on demand water heater was what I was considering. Turns out, however, that I'm using the camp far more often that I thought I would. I anticipate being up every other weekend through the winter. That makes the winterizing laborious. Has anyone found any better options? I was thinking perhaps I should insulate the basement walls and run a very low consumption propane on a thermostat. I'd keep the basement around 38-40 degrees. A reasonable option, or huge waste of propane? Anyone else come up with some creative solutions on minimizing the time/effort of winterizing for short periods?

Redoverfarm · November 12, 2012, 08:46:01 AM

Doc the basement and crawlspace in my cabin was not really a problem unless the temperature dropped well below freezing for an extended period of time. My biggest problem was the main floor and loft areas without some type of heat. Seems the basement stayed well above freezing for the most part. I did experience a toilet that froze and cracked when temps dropped to near 0F for a week but that was the loft one. The main floor did not I guess because the crawlspace temps kept the trap and lines somewhat heated from the ground temps usually associated with cave like conditions.

November 12, 2012, 07:12:40 PM

Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 12, 2012, 08:46:01 AM
Doc the basement and crawlspace in my cabin was not really a problem unless the temperature dropped well below freezing for an extended period of time. My biggest problem was the main floor and loft areas without some type of heat. Seems the basement stayed well above freezing for the most part. I did experience a toilet that froze and cracked when temps dropped to near 0F for a week but that was the loft one. The main floor did not I guess because the crawlspace temps kept the trap and lines somewhat heated from the ground temps usually associated with cave like conditions.

That's intriguing, and an excellent consideration. I anticipate periods of up to two weeks well below freezing and have been most worried about the basement. I suppose the greater concern should be the main floor which features the plumbing. (kitchen sink and bathroom) Perhaps a compromise wherein a central valve drains the plumbing down to the lowest point and takes just a few minutes. A cup or two of antifreeze for the traps is quick and easy. The on-demand water heater could benefit from a very small heater cable running off my batteries to keep it just above freezing. Another option, I'll buy a small air tank, keep it compressed and somehow rig it into the plumbing just before the water heater. That way, I could just open the water drain valve distal to the unit and hit it with a blast of air from just proximal to the unit. I'm trying to avoid spending an hour opening and closing my "cave" for use each other week.

I asked the HD guys in the plumbing aisle how to interface an airtank and hose into plumbing fittings. They just scratched their heads until one of them answered, "that's easy... tape". 'nuff said.

Redoverfarm · November 12, 2012, 08:00:09 PM

Quote from: AdironDoc on November 12, 2012, 07:12:40 PM

I asked the HD guys in the plumbing aisle how to interface an airtank and hose into plumbing fittings. They just scratched their heads until one of them answered, "that's easy... tape". 'nuff said.

Doc I just went down to the garage I deal with and got a new car tire valve. Remove the screen from the faucet. The ball section(normally inside the tire rim) of the valve fits nicely to seal it off. Then just use the fill valve on the air tank. There are two sizes normally used. One size fits better than the other. But at a minimal cost you could afford both and use the one that fits best .

AdironDoc · November 12, 2012, 09:58:14 PM

Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 12, 2012, 08:00:09 PM
Doc I just went down to the garage I deal with and got a new car tire valve. Remove the screen from the faucet. The ball section(normally inside the tire rim) of the valve fits nicely to seal it off. Then just use the fill valve on the air tank. There are two sizes normally used. One size fits better than the other. But at a minimal cost you could afford both and use the one that fits best .

Thanks, John! That doesn't sound too bad. I think they are called Schrader valves. The end of my air hose already has the end to fit it. I'll play around with it this weekend.

Glenn

November 12, 2012, 10:29:04 PM

You can buy a valve at most places that sell air compressor replacement parts. Campbell Hausfeld is one brand. Here's a link to what I mean. They screw into an 1/8" pipe thread. I have one of these permanently plumbed into the cabin water system close to the supply point by my pump.

I connect a compressor to it and then go around opening and closing valves. The next step would be to permanently connect a compressor that would stay on site. I'd put a ball valve between the compressor and the water system so it could be separated from the water system when the water system was in use.

johnecash · November 13, 2012, 01:26:53 AM

Doc,

I plumbed a ball valve with a quick coupler on the end ------- all that is needed is to hook an air hose to it and open the valve.

It sure saves time on the hook-up

J.C.

AdironDoc · November 13, 2012, 12:24:23 PM

Thanks, Don, JC. Since I'll be doing this on a routine basis, I'd like to permanently join my compressor/tank to the plumbing with ball valves as mentioned. Does a valve go near where each run enters a bath appliance or kitchen sink? . Any thoughts as to best placement? Lowest points are the two loops of pipe hot/cold exiting the tankless heater, and over at main water supply as it enters the basement. I was about to put in drain valves at each of those points. Also of note, the Rheem manual says my unit is freeze proof to -30F and can be safely mounted and used outdoors in subzero conditions. I'd still feel safer blowing it out. Also had someone tell me that PEX has a little "give" and can handle small amounts of freeze. Not sure if true or not.

Redoverfarm · November 13, 2012, 12:34:30 PM

Doc the main reason I used this method was for the cartridge style faucets. Just blowing the lines does not rid the water out of the cartridges. I start at the upper level (loft bathroom) blowing both H&C lines through the faucets then move to the lower level and do the same. Will the cartridges freeze I am not sure but it is something that I didn't really want to find out about. So I went the extra mile for a little more insurance. Seems all the modern fixtures use cartridge style levers rather than the old O ring seats.

I could probably adapt a tire valve to a srew on cap but some faucets have inside threads and some have external threads that the screen cap uses. Not to mention various sizes so this is the best I could come up with. At least for now. Maybe later I will try to make up caps to blow all of them out with.

November 13, 2012, 12:44:04 PM

Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 13, 2012, 12:34:30 PM
Doc the main reason I used this method was for the cartridge style faucets. Just blowing the lines does not rid the water out of the cartridges. I start at the upper level (loft bathroom) blowing both H&C lines through the faucets then move to the lower level and do the same. Will the cartridges freeze I am not sure but it is something that I didn't really want to find out about. So I went the extra mile for a little more insurance. Seems all the modern fixtures use cartridge style levers rather than the old O ring seats.

I could probably adapt a tire valve to a srew on cap but some faucets have inside threads and some have external threads that the screen cap uses. Not to mention various sizes so this is the best I could come up with. At least for now. Maybe later I will try to make up caps to blow all of them out with.

John, mine are almost certainly cartridge as well. Good point about them retaining water. I'll need to be mindful of that and drain them as well.

Glenn

AdironDoc · November 13, 2012, 12:52:57 PM

Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 12, 2012, 08:46:01 AM
somewhat heated from the ground temps usually associated with cave like conditions.

John, this got me to thinking. If the walls and joists were insulated well in the basement, but the basement floor (gravel in my case) were left open, the temps in the basement may be well moderated by ground heat. The ground in my cabin's basement is around 6 to 6.5 ft down from the surface. It may not be warm by a longshot, but could be well above freezing. I'd let my first floor fixtures and lines drain to below the floor using a drain valve on each line just near the ceiling of the basement. If it doesn't work, the worst I'd end up with is an insulated basement which could always be used for...

Glenn

MountainDon · November 13, 2012, 01:06:27 PM

Quotethe Rheem manual says my unit is freeze proof to -30F

Is that because they have a small electric heater built in. Many do that and they only kick in when the temperature reaches a preset low point. Those are also only useful if there is grid tie power. Off grid and batteries don't mix well with heaters as a general rule.

QuotePEX has a little "give"

Yes, PEX tubing stretxhes and returns to its native size. However, the fitting don't.

I installed ball valves to isolate certain plumbing fixtures from the balance of the system. That makes it possible to activate the plumbing for the kitchen sink and still keep the lines to the shower dry for example. That might be harder to do at this point. The only reason I used ball valves is I like their quick operation and straight flow through. Other types would work as well. A potential problem with a ball valve is water may be trapped in the ball when it is closed. If freezing occurs that could be a trouble point. I have avoided that so far by only closing the ball valve when the line has been blown clear and air is still passing through. A drop or two of water in a larger void should not be a problem.

Regarding the cartridge type valves... The first winter I dissambled mine and made sure they were clear of water. Subsequent to that two winters have passed with no problems by using the blow out method. I have a high volume of air and put each valve / mixer through several cycles. That's my experience. It may bite my butt at some point, but so far, so good.

If the compressor was portable it would be a reasonably easy matter to work from the fixtures down to a low point drain valve. Our system is compact and cramped under the counter where the water tank, pump, heater are located and making a low pooint for everything to drain back too was difficult. So, I opted for the air blow out with no low point drains, save for the water supply tank and the drain on the water heater.

new land owner · November 14, 2012, 05:45:07 PM

My plan is to drain down to the crawl space using this maniford

I will put a small amount of electric heat in the room I plan to build and insulate in the crawl space and I have two hose shut off valves at the low point of my water system that I will open to drain it. I don't thinl it will cost too much to keep this area just over freezing.

AdironDoc · November 14, 2012, 11:34:46 PM

Having once entered a greenhouse situated against the wall of a house, I was amazed that even in winter, the ambient temp was way higher than outside. I've entertained the notion of making a window box out of several triple pane insulated windows facing the winter sun at an angle. Highly insulated within and featuring a wall of stacked stone painted black in color against the exterior wall of the house. Inside, the plumbing manifold like New Land Owner is using along with the tankless heater. Hopefully, the thermal mass would carry it through those especially cold nights. Fixtures could be opened and drain passively back into that enclosure.

November 19, 2012, 11:12:09 AM

To back up Don, the Rheem tankless water heater needs a constant power source or it will freeze. I have the Rheem RTG64XP outdoor tankless water heater. It has micro-heating elements that will periodically power up and use ~100 watts of power now and then. I have had 3... 3! of these units freeze up on me before moving in full time. I highly recommend you blow them out and leave your electrical hooked up.

We are offgrid and I am constantly monitoring the energy use of various appliances (namely the fridge and the Rheem water heater). If yours is an indoor unit I am not sure if it would have those heating elements.

nysono · December 06, 2012, 07:15:20 AM

Glenn,
After leaving bottled water in my basement last year and it never froze I decided to:

1. sloped all my lines so that I can drain them (passively) from the pressure tank to the most distal point

2. enclosed the area of my pressure tank and insulate sides and ceiling

3. depend on the ground temperature to keep tank from freezing (5' below ground is 45-50 degrees)

My tankless is also at the far end of water lines. I open all valves and drain everythingfrom it also.
A shot of antifreeze in the traps and all should be good. Upon entering camp after time away I open valve from pressure tank, close draining valves (after air has escaped) and I'm ready to go. Takes about 5 minutes each for shut down and opening up. The coldest I saw my basement last year was about 38 degrees at about 5' above floor.
Steve