Some Questions

Ed · July 12, 2009, 05:05:34 PM

Hi

I have done some post style sheds, porches, etc but this will be my first attempt at some sort of living structure - the 14' x 24' little house. I have some practical problems and would appreciate any words of guidance.

The cabin will be just over the Minnesota - Canadian border on the shore of a moderate size lake. The nearest moderate sized town is 80 miles away and that includes about 40 miles of graveled roads. Where I'm bulding has a slight slope (it drops off about a foot or so in 24') and the soil is somewhat rocky and sandy (any digging takes some effort!). Very few people around here build on any sort of a concrete foundation. My uncle built on the sand and my grandfather (and and he had to come in by canoe from Minnesota) built on rock with some logs underneath.

Okay. I had planned to put in PT posts and then got to thinking about the pier block idea (putting in the 8" concrete piers would take a lot of cement!). So my first question is, given how far north I am and the soil conditions, is using pier block on a foot or so gravel base a reasonable idea or should I stick with 4 x 4 PT posts to frost level and, if the pier block is a reasonable idea, is it okay to use what are termed Dek-blocks - pier blocks with an indentation in the concrete for the post (i.e. there is no metal bracket to which to fasten the post) - or should I just build the pier blocks using the instructions that came with the plans. I ask about the Dek-blocks since that is all I seem to be able to find in northern Minnesota.

Second question. It is going to be difficult to get building materials to the site whatever I do. However, to transport 24' beams will be especially difficult. Suggestions?

My apologies if these questions seem especially naive.

Ed Wall

MountainDon · July 12, 2009, 05:26:28 PM

Well, the simple question first. The beams can be built up from 2x stock. Placing the ends of say two 12 footers enr to end will cover the 24 feet. Putting splices like that over a post os best. Nail them together. Use 1/2" plywood spacers to increase the thickness to match standard finisged lumber sises; 3.5", 5.5", etc.

see here

July 12, 2009, 05:36:29 PM

As for wood posts or concrete blocks.... no matter which you use you should have a concrete footer down in the ground below expected frost level. 16 x 16 x 8 inches is typical.

Q? Is this to be a permanent residence or something used once a year for hunting/fishing or something somewhere in between?

Q? Inspections? Building permits? I'm thinking that if this is a remote hunting cabin and there are no inspections you might be able to take some short cuts. The cabin may move a bit, doors and windows bind... I can't recommend that, but I do know it has been done.

The Little House plans are drawn with 4 foot spacing on the 4x4 posts. You can increase the spacing by up sizing the beams. or example, a 6x12 beam, maybe a 6x10

(laminated from 2x material) could have the posts on 8 foot centers saving some digging.

8x8x8 concrete blocks could be used on a footer and the center hollow filled with concrete and steel rebar. ecure the beams on top.

Ed · July 13, 2009, 05:46:17 PM

Thanks for the answers. The cabin will be something in between - mainly for summers. There are no inspections - at least there weren't - but I don't mind digging. I'd already planned a bit of my summer for that. The main reason I asked is that it seemed a little easier to line things up and level them off using the pier blocks and short pieces of 4x4.

Ed

MountainDon · July 13, 2009, 06:53:29 PM

Much easier to line them up that way. That is a good point and works as long as the piers and beams are well connected to the concrete piers. Also you need good cross bracing.

July 13, 2009, 08:47:55 PM

Hi Ed,

to the madness!

As Don said, you have to get below the frost line. Make sure that your pier holes are well drained and don't pond water!

I'm wrestling through a build right now and am only slightly ahead of you. I am trailering all of my supplies ~200 miles including 12 miles of rocky / muddy road that takes an hour one way. My cabin is smaller than yours, but is still a lot of work. Here's my link:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4782.0

I have some advice for you:

1) Careful site selection. Note my site. I started digging before I realized how much slope I had. What a huge mistake. My exuberance got the better of me. Figure out where the corners are going to be and check the pier height before you start digging. You can save a lot of block and concrete that way.

2) Dig a test hole to see how bad it is going to be. You can have 18" of soft soil on top of 300 vertical feet of rock. Getting the next 24" out of that hole can be sheer hell. Ask me how I know.

3) Hire somebody to dig those holes for you. Preferably kids who are thinking about dropping out of high school. You can set them on a straight and narrow academic career just by doing this. Pay per the hole, not per the hour. Don't be cheap.

4) Built up beams can be really, really stout. I had a hard time finding large galvanized nails. Finally found some 60p nails with a twist. Hand driving these was not an option. My palm nailer set them home in a hurry.

5) If opting for pressure treated wood for your beams, note that the standard CB66 type Simpson bases that Home depot sells are NOT the heavy duty galvanized ones. You need the ZMAX coating to resist corrosion. I had to put some isolation between my beams and Simpson clips because I did not know this.

6) There is a huge amount of information here, and people willing to share. Read through all the projects. Tremendous scope of technique and style. Check out MtnDons place, and ScottA's OK cabin, and Glenn's underground adventures.

7) Beware the arguing on the off-topics forum and don't take it too seriously. We fight like hell but don't mean anything by it. Even the folks I most bitterly argue with I would help in an instant or buy them a beer. We are sort of like a dysfunctional family (we put the "fun" in dysfunctional).

Above all, know that you can do this. It ain't rocket surgery. You are going to love it.

Regards,

Frank

MountainDon · July 13, 2009, 09:54:14 PM

Quote from: NM_Shooter on July 13, 2009, 08:47:55 PM

1) Careful site selection. Note my site. I started digging before I realized how much slope I had.

We may be slower than many but we took close to 2 years to finalize the cabin site.

When we had that picked I drove 5 stakes into the ground; one at each corner, one in the more or less center. I used a water level to mark datum points on each perimeter stake, using the center one as the reference. Allowing for enough space under the beams and joists at the corner closest to the ground revealed the diagonally opposite corner would have the floor level some 4 1/2 to 5 feet above the grounds natural contour.

That convinced me to have the ground graded to almost level in a patch that extended some four feet out from each wall. We were lucky to have a nearby neighbor with a skidsteer who did it for the cost of fuel and a beer.

The only time I regret having taken so long to decide on the cabin placement is when I look at the list of things still to be done. However, every time I look at the site and especially when I look out the window at Redondo Peak I am thankful we were so deliberately slow in commencing.

Ed · July 16, 2009, 12:38:50 PM

Frank and Don

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm on a high bank overlooking a lake so water pooling isn't much of a problem although I may find as I dig down a solid rock shelf. There really isn't much of a local community so getting help has always been a problem although it is sometimes possible (I've been asking for the last several years). In fact, I'd be happy, in a sense, to farm out all the work!
Thanks for the comments about the connectors. I guess I could just nail 4x4 strips to the post-beam joints as I'm coming straight up with the posts from the frost line (which is a bit of a ways down). Don, you said a little about cross-bracing. Could you say more.

Ed

Geraldsh · July 16, 2009, 07:21:04 PM

If you hit solid rock when you dig you don't need to worry about the frost line anymore, the rock should be stable enough.

MountainDon · July 22, 2009, 11:07:09 PM

Quote from: Ed on July 16, 2009, 12:38:50 PM
Don, you said a little about cross-bracing. Could you say more.

Ed

I've been away a while.

Basically you want to add diagonal bracing at each post. If you can brace in both the length and the width directions at each post so much the better. The best bracing will be secured by bolting through, not just relying on nails. Large lag screws are usually fine as well. Sorry, I have no handy pictures to post.