Where do you stand?

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'll plainly stick with God and his word with no twisted interpretations by any "Religion". 

Only problem with that is, after trying to interpret the Bible alone for awhile you basically end up with your very own "Religion". Hence the 30,000 different protestant denominations...

Do you think that God wouldn't care about a Church that did not operate to increase the power and wealth of the people in charge?  A Church that didn't have a paid clergy, I should say.

"A prophet is worth his wage...."

Jesus sent his apostles to tell everybody his gospel about the Kingdom.  I don't think he ever wanted a religion founded on him. 

What about Matthew 16:18? "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."

I think that anyone who is trying their hardest to be a good person, even if they don't even know about God, can be a saint. BUT, religion makes it a lot easier. We're all driving to the same place, but the Church is a map, so to speak. Lot's of churches have different pieces of the map, and they all claim to have the whole thing.

[glenn kangiser]

I simplify it to the two greatest commandments and let the secrets reveal themselves when the time is right --- no need to push it - I can't speed things up.

A church is not a building but simply a group of people - still no denomination as I see it. hmm

.. the bus could go off of the road but the guy in the VW might just manuever the turn..

Just different thoughts, Andrew and of course I value your insight.  You should feel sorry for Sassy... she has to deal with me nearly every day..

For a topic everyone is scared of this one sure is getting a lot of traffic...

[Ernest T. Bass]

What makes you think the guy is in a VW and not on foot? And yes, a bus could certainly go right off the road if God isn't driving...

[StinkerBell]

I will never eat a potato again.

[glenn kangiser]

Sorry, Stink -- that was part of an old bad joke.

[Jens]

 

I wonder if they have them in Spandex.... hmm

There you go talking about spandex again Glenn  Beginning to think there might be more to you than meets the eye.

JN 14:6 [Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
I must apologize for the baiting on this.  I was actually kind of curious how long it would be until someone brought this up.  If these words of his are taken only at face value, then nobody who came before Jesus shall have reached heaven.  But scripture tells us otherwise.  The beginning of John says, " in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, he was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  And later, "The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us...only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."  (TNIV, John 1:1, 1:14).  Yet we are taught that there were some chosen to go with God.  But Jesus spoke in parables much of the time, or if not full parable, at least indirectly.

If Jesus is the Word, and was there from the beginning, and all things were made through him, then he is perfect peace, and love.  Not just the kind of peace you get when two armies stop fighting, and not the kind of love that humans share, but the same peace and love that we had when we were in the garden.  Wholeness, perfection, God among us, and with us...in short, I'll use the word shalom.  The law is also called the Word, and so we may make a correlation there as well (may, you don't have to).  Jesus in fact said himself, "I have not come to abolish the prophets and the law, but to fulfill the law."  Jesus is shalom, Emmanuel.  To have the harmony with God, not simply to believe in him, but to know him.  That is what Jesus offered, and continues to offer to this day.  Because in Jesus, we may be reborn of the spirit.  We can reach that place where God's plane of existence, and ours overlaps.  It is here always, but through the teachings of the Christ we are to more easily recognize it.

There are others who knew the Word, even before he became flesh.  Abraham was summoned by God, not the other way around.  But he believed in God, for it is written, "Abram believed in the Lord, and it was credited to him as righteousness."  Gen 15:6  Credited to him as righteousness.  Grace granted, given by God.  Not waiting generations for Jesus to grant it to him in the flesh.  Notice here too, that Abram didn't do anything to receive righteousness, but for to believe in the Lord.  Elsewhere in scripture, Jacob wrestles with the Lord.  Enoch and Elijah are taken to the Lord.  Neither of them had ever heard of Jesus.  

And the name Jesus, means God saves.  "Nobody comes to the Father except that the father saves?"  I wonder if that could be a different way to read that.  These are all things that I struggle with.  I don't let them worry me, or consume me, but I wonder.  I for one, do not think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, etc, on up to Gandhi, are not with the Father in the happy hunting ground, simply because they never heard, or didn't ascribe to the gospel of Jesus as given in life.  And I don't think that one can simply say they accept Jesus and be saved, any more than you can say you are going to kill someone and it is done.  There is no ladder that leads to salvation, but there is a difference between truly accepting and making oneself a follower/deciphle, and just saying I do.  

"It seems (I can be wrong) that you are trying to justify that all roads lead to God. I do not subscribe to this, nor does imo the Bible"

Not really what I mean, but close.  We are all trying to find our way back to God, to shalom, but we all take different roads to get there.  He moves us toward his Kingdom in different ways.  And speaks to us in different languages.  I do not know enough about eastern religions to quantify this with any proof, but I do know that in some of them they search for enlightenment.  That enlightenment, I believe, is communion with God, transcending existences.  It is when the body and spirit become one, although they are still separate, (much like God walking the Earth, or at least the closest thing for us to that).  Not making oneself like a god, but coming into closer relationship with the Word, with all of creation.  I do not think that all religions lead to God, but I believe that one can get to God without religion at all.  Adam and Eve didn't need religion, neither did Noah or Abram, they needed God, and He them.  He still needs us, just as we need him, and that is one of the reasons to send Jesus.  To reconcile, to teach, to expand awareness beyond Judaism.  But yes, sometimes I think he speaks other "languages".  

"grace is awesome, but without acts, is empty existence"

It is not enough to believe, yet disobey, to be a planted seed, that does not grow, to receive grace, without extending it.  We must do these things to have communion.  We must love regardless of receiving it in return.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but not with inactivity.  We must not be ungrateful.  

Jesus strove to proclaim our freedom from man, from physicality, from the pain that is sin, and the traps that lead us away from God.  You are correct though, that freedom exists within the Law, and within the Word.  Indeed that freedom is both those things.  The Pharisees were blind guides, who simply wanted more, more, more.  The more that they wanted however, is not the more that God cares about.  And that is the pedestal, I fear, that we see clergy (not all) climbing up on top of.  Even Peter struggled greatly with money and power when the church was in it's infancy.  Jesus washed the feet of his apostles to try to impress upon them to be humble, to be a servant, not a lord.  I could go on more about clergy, but I won't (lest ye be misled, I do care a great deal for the clergy, but have difficulty still).

That is all I will write for now.  I am sorry for the length, but trying to answer the questions well enough that you understand where I am coming from.  Probably didn't do it!  If you wish, I will bow out of the discussion.  I am enjoying it, but would like to hear more thoughts from others as well.  And I don't want to offend too much.

[glenn kangiser]

There you go talking about spandex again Glenn

Sorry, Jens.... We have a lot of bikers here on Hwy 49  --- It is a constant reinforcement of a bad image...

Beginning to think there might be more to you than meets the eye.

You've never seen me in Spandex....

Truth be known I don't have any ---

...couldn't find my size...

[Jens]

sorry, posts happened while I was typing, so I'll just say these two things,

1.Glenn, you are sick, very sick indeed.

2.I was taught, in Catholic school, by a nun, that the church is, "the family of God on Earth", but not religion.  The same nun also said that "there are Godless people who go to church twice a week, and people full of the spirit who never do."  We don't need the church to be with God, but I think sometimes we are a part of the church without even knowing it!

3.you are very sick glenn...

Sorry, that was 3.  

May God bless all of you, and I bid that you find shalom.

[glenn kangiser]

I'm afraid there is no cure, Jens....

....durn it.... got me again - both number 1 and 3....  Must get on CP forum for therapy......


Seems that so many are headed to the wide path of religion as the way rather than the narrow gate of non-government registered non- commercial religion.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it."

I wonder about the above verse along with this...

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Seems we can't take  the leaders of a commercial religion at face value and follow unquestioningly in light of the above verses.

Just my thoughts ...

Seems the small path is the way to go... hmm

[Sonoran]

My wife and I will teach our children not just about god and morality, but how to think for themselves and not blindly follow anyone or anything. 

This is tricky because,  if they learn how to think for themselves because that is what you tell them to do...

[Sonoran]

Muldoon, I'm not saying this is bad, I agree with you.  It's just funny because if they think for themselves because you tell them to, then they are not thinking for themselves.  Just a funny...I don't know...paradox is the word maybe?  But a necessary one.

[glenn kangiser]

Not if you only instruct them in the art of thinking for themselves.  

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he eats for the rest of his life.

Question Authority.

[Jens]

Teach a man to fish, and he'll get drunk in the middle of a lake. 

It isn't enough to just teach him to fish, you have to teach him to bait the hook, cast the line, reel the fish, clean the fish, cook the fish, etc, etc.