Little House roof details

[Pa_Kettle]

We're just about to put the roof on the "cabin in the sticks" and I have a bunch of detail questions I hope you all can help me with.  This is mostly a sanity check on my part to make sure I don't go off and do something totally lame.

This is all 14x24 Little House stuff.

First, is it correct that the end loft joist sits away from the end rafter about 2"?  The rafter goes flush with the outside wall and the first loft joist goes against the gable wall studs, correct?

Does it matter which side of each rafter I attach the other loft joists?

The plans show an overall dimension of 8' 6" for big the loft (outside wall to outside edge of loft), but placing the loft joists up against the rafters puts the last big loft joist at 8' 2-1/4" for me.  Am I doing it wrong or is a trim board or some such being included?  I get 50 1/4" for the small loft and the plans show 4' as well.

The materials list calls for 9 loft joists, but I only count 8 (5 for the big loft, 3 for the small).  Do I double one up somewhere?

I want about 12" overhang at the gable ends.  I plan to run a ridge board that hangs out the end rafters (the ones flush with the outer wall) about 12" and then hang a flying "1 by" out at the end and flush with the overhanging roof sheathing.  I'll also put a few "2 by's" perpendicular (like blocking)  to help support things.  Does this seem reasonable?

Thanks for all the info so far.  We are really excited about gettin our little cabin out of the weather soon!

PK

[jraabe]

first loft joist goes against the gable wall studs, correct? - yes. This becomes the nailer for the flooring.

It is true that the 24" spacing for the rafter/ loft joist connection does not work out perfectly for the necessary 8'-6" layout needed for the bathroom. Use the extra joist and block it out from the last linked rafter-joist pair. This will stiffen the support for the railing as well.

I want about 12" overhang at the gable ends.  I plan to run a ridge board that hangs out the end rafters (the ones flush with the outer wall) about 12" and then hang a flying "1 by" out at the end and flush with the overhanging roof sheathing.  I'll also put a few "2 by's" perpendicular (like blocking)  to help support things.  Does this seem reasonable? - This could probably work. Builders often notch out the last rafter and lay flat 2x4s back to the second rafter to support a gable end extension with an outrigger or "ladder". This is shown on page 132 in Wagner's House Framing book.

Another more traditional way to support a gable end extension is to make the outer rafter structural. You would notch it over and support it back to the wall with 4x4 angle brackets. In this case one at each corner and one at the peak.

[Pa_Kettle]

Thanks for the response John.

We aren't building the bathroom out to 8'6", so I'm not worried about that exact dimension.  I was more concerned I had missed a building detail.  The extra support at the railing is important to us though, so I think we'll sandwich the outermost rafter with loft joists for nice strong loft end.

I've read about running ladder supports back to an inner rafter.  I've read every framing book I can get my hands on, lol.  I have also read that a "12 (or less) overhang is short enough for the sheathing to handle.  One problem I've run into with framing books is a bunch of them seem to be using the same source, they even have the same illustrations.  So, although I've looked at many framing/building books, I've really only seen maybe 3 different descriptions of how to do things.

We're heading out there tomorrow, so wish us luck!

PK

[peg_688]

We're heading out there tomorrow, so wish us luck!

PK

Good Luck the 12" soffit will be fine hanging off the extended ridge and facia as long as your roof sheathing is continueus (sp) We generally , if the soffits are exposed , not closed in , use LP Plain , or Satin ply rippings on exposed soffits and rakes , looks better , then you'd need lookouts like John talked about .

Hope that helps more then muddies the water

At any rate good luck again

[Pa_Kettle]

Good Luck the 12" soffit will be fine hanging off the extended ridge and facia as long as your roof sheathing is continueus (sp) We generally , if the soffits are exposed , not closed in , use LP Plain , or Satin ply rippings on exposed soffits and rakes , looks better , then you'd need lookouts like John talked about .

Hope that helps more then muddies the water

At any rate good luck again

Thanks for the info.

I think I understand.  You use fine finish plywood but only on the overhanging ends so you need extra support since a roof sheathing seam is right at the "wall line".  Right?

We got the loft joists up, but the roof rafters won this round.  Things were too heavy, too unstable and too high up.  So we are planning on sheathing the wall corners (I think), and building supports for the ridge board(s).  I'm toying with the idea of renting a nail gun and compressor too.  Of course it'd have to be a gas compressor...

Thanks again!

PK

[peg_688]

 #1:     I think I understand.  You use fine finish plywood but only on the overhanging ends so you need extra support since a roof sheathing seam is right at the "wall line".  Right?

 #2:     We got the loft joists up, but the roof rafters won this round.  Things were too heavy, too unstable and too high up.  So we are planning on sheathing the wall corners (I think), and building supports for the ridge board(s).  I'm toying with the idea of renting a nail gun and compressor too.  Of course it'd have to be a gas compressor...

Thanks again!

PK

#1:    You got it  

#2: Check out this thread some photo ideas , might help ya some :

http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144724922/20

This photo in paticular might help





it's about midway Pg #2 of the above thread.

[youngins]

first loft joist goes against the gable wall studs, correct? - yes. This becomes the nailer for the flooring.

I know the loft joists need to be 2x8's and 24" o/c-but can you please clarify something?

Can you please clarify the position of the first loft joist in relation to the "end" top plates?

Also, it appears in PaKettle's pictures the joists are just short of being flush with the outside edge of the "side" top plates? Is this an illusion or is this correct?

Reference= http://cabin.foxlore.net/

Thanks

[peg_688]

first loft joist goes against the gable wall studs, correct? - yes. This becomes the nailer for the flooring.

#1:I know the loft joists need to be 2x8's and 24" o/c-but can you please clarify something?

#2: Can you please clarify the position of the first loft joist in relation to the "end" top plates?

#3: Also, it appears in PaKettle's pictures the joists are just short of being flush with the outside edge of the "side" top plates? Is this an illusion or is this correct?

Reference= http://cabin.foxlore.net/

Thanks

 #1: Maybe  :-?

 #2: Generally nailed right to the gable end studs , becomes floor joist for the floor and a sheetrock nailer for the ceiling .  The second one in is ,GENERALLY ,spaced 24 3/4" hooked to and to the going away side of joist #2, so hooked to joist #1 you'd be reading 24 3/4" , 48 3/4" , 72 3/4" , 96 3/4" so your floor sheathing and you sheet good drywall (if your using D/W) would land on center when full sheets are land down.

  #3:  Can you post just the photo your refering to instead of the whole link??  I'm not see what your asking about, sorry if that a problem.    

[youngins]

 #2: Generally nailed right to the gable end studs , becomes floor joist for the floor and a sheetrock nailer for the ceiling .  The second one in is ,GENERALLY ,spaced 24 3/4" hooked to and to the going away side of joist #2, so hooked to joist #1 you'd be reading 24 3/4" , 48 3/4" , 72 3/4" , 96 3/4" so your floor sheathing and you sheet good drywall (if your using D/W) would land on center when full sheets are land down.  

I can now see the loft joists go all the way across, ends flush with the sides of the outside wall.

Still trying to understand conceptually how the position of the first loft joist is determined. Since none of "gable end studs" appear to be installed in the picture above (am I wrong about this?), how would I know the positioning of first loft joist?

Not sure what "hooked to" means your response - going to go read my book as soon as I finish this reply.


Thanks for your patience,

[peg_688]

If you hook your tape measure end on the first joist and it is nailed to the gable end studs that [highlight]could be[/highlight] your lay out start point .  Some could choose to drive the overall layout from the rafter layout. which is off set / along side the joist in a rafter joist system.   With truss's this is not a issue as both joist and rafter are built together/ one 1 1/2" thick unit , [highlight]generally.[/highlight]

Here's a ballon framed gable end , if which in this case was not the case  :-/, a joist was to be run from top plate , across the room / house , to the opposite top plate the first joist would have been nailed to the gable end studs . But layout would have been driven by the rafter layout.  

 

 Hope this helped , and maybe I just confusing you more   .

 It's a pick your posion on layout , I'd rather lay out may rafters so less sheets need trimmed to fit so "layout " is normally driven by the rafter , it's easier , sort of to cut stuff on the ground / on a flat surface,  like a floor,  then to deal with more cuts on the roof.    

 That being said most roof sheathing is and [highlight]should be cut on the ground before it is on the roof[/highlight] , but $hit happens and thats just the way it is .

 BUT like I said [highlight]I ( generally) lay out for my rafters to be either 16" or 24" OC[/highlight] the joists sort of are but they are along side the rafter so may not be automatically OC from the new / interior side of the wall  , you have to remember / think about the off set the wall itself causes to the OC (On Center) lay out.

 Jeesh I'm confusing myself now   better quit while I'm ahead , that is If I am ahead in explaining this   As at tghis point I'm not sure  :'(     

[PEG688]

 



quote]

In this photo it would be my opinion that the joist (first one closest end ) was placed wrong / in the way of the gable end studs , either they had to move that joist to allow the gable studs to "flush up " with both inside and outsides of the lower wall, or they had to knotch each gable end stud around the joist , or they put the gablestud flat which would not allow insulation in the wall as it would only be 1 1/2" thick.  

[youngins]

In this photo it would be my opinion that the joist (first one closest end ) was placed wrong / in the way of the gable end studs..

I am going to check to see if I can find a graphical example of what it should look like. I dont know why this is so hard for me to understand this particular concept - but I will post back once I have done a little research.

Thanks again...

[PEG688]

In this photo it would be my opinion that the joist (first one closest end ) was placed wrong / in the way of the gable end studs..

I am going to check to see if I can find a graphical example of what it should look like. I dont know why this is so hard for me to understand this particular concept - but I will post back once I have done a little research.

Thanks again...

Better yet lay it out on a 2x4 put in both sides of the rafter, draw in the full wall thickness 2x4 / 2x6 , then do both sides of joist #1.

It's way easier than your making it , and /or I'm doing a bad job of explaining it    

[jonsey/downunder]

The photo is right. The outside face of the floor joist is flush with the inside face of the top plate. It is like this so that you have something to fix your sheet rock to if you are going to use that for the ceiling on the lower floor. The studs for the gable end continue up from the top plate past the floor joist. The rafter is flush with the outside of the plate so the sheathing can be fixed to that.

[jonsey/downunder]

Looking at that photo again, you are right,   Pa-K hasn't done it like that. Therefore, unless he is going to put the floor down before he finishes framing the gable he will have to either put in an extra joist of some sort of blocking to catch the end of his flooring. Either way it is not a problem, just do what works best for you. The only thing you need to work out is how you will fix the ceiling if you are having one or how the floor is fixed against the gable wall. Hope this is of some use to you.

[PEG688]

Of course I'm right , that joist is up against the rafter = 3" of material on what looks like a 3 1/2" wide top plate .  But thanks for adding to the confusion  

Hows your garden doing , just about mid summer for you ?  I've heard Oz is have drought like conditions , has that effected your local area ??

[youngins]

But thanks for adding to the confusion  

Before I go on, I am only using PK's pic's because they capture a lot of detail and trying to learn from them. I don't mean to drag this -  I am interested in the "best practices" approach to building. Looking for methods / techniques which will avoid problems. I plan on building a 14x24 LH so I am trying to do as much planning before hand to avoid frustration later.

Here is a picture Pa Kettles 14x24 from the loft end:



It appears the gable was constructed within the end rafter. I can't help noticing a small gap between the end rafter/gable wall studs and the first joist.

Is this an illusion?

Thanks again for your patience

[glenn kangiser]

It's possible layout may have started from the opposite end leaving a little gap or he may have had some other reason, but more than anything, how it is actually done is not as important as laying out to minimize waste while staying within the structural limits of the members and design.  In other words , layout cannot be on 24" centers for both the inside and the outside of the same house due to wall thickness, so actual as built design may vary but the end result will be the same.

The below listed site has ideas on wood saving practices along with lots of other info.

http://www.toolbase.org/Home-Building-Topics/Affordable-Construction/advance-framing-techniques
Advanced Framing Techniques: Optimum Value Engineering (OVE)

[PEG688]

It appears the gable was constructed within the end rafter. I can't help noticing a small gap between the end rafter/gable wall studs and the first joist.

Is this an illusion?

 What I see , and I don't think PK will be offended that his photos are being used to explain a point , I hope  

Ok what I see is first rafter , is the eve/ soffit over hang rafter commonly called a barge rafter, verge rafter, rake rafter , all the same part just different areas use different term , i was trained in R.I. we called it a rake board / or rafter, the trim board we used to nail to that rafter was really the Rake board.

 The second rafter in is the real rake rafter , it is flush with the exterior framing and the gable sheathing should tie the lower wall to the rafter end , IE Sheets should break on the top plates nailed the snot out of that seam , and then go up and tie lower and upper wall together.

That first joist has been moved away from the rake rafter by 2" to clear the way for those gable studs to set fully on the lower wall top plate , the joist shoild have been , MTL HAS been, nailed to those studs , rafter layout was pullled from the rake rafter to put the rafter what appears to be 16" OC , the rest of the joist are nailed along side there respective aligned rafter. so all the joist , except the end two should be on layout for interior sheet good .

There are exceptions on joist like don't put one on lay out right uner a toilet the plumber WILL CUT IT OUT , whichh he has to , or you move the crapper, so when you lay out toilets are NOT YOUR FRIEND , unless you know where they live .

You really are over thinking this part, you will have some waste , you will make some mistakes , you will rip it out and redo it , it happens on EVERY job , sure some one will say not on mine , well maybe   but it would be a rare job that was done perfect , Jesus is no longer in the carpentry trades  

Good luck.PEG  

Edited to add that end rafter the rake / verge / barge the flyer does not need to be on lay out , NORMALLY all the eves are plywooded  with a finished plywood AC / Satin Ply , or LP plain a finish grade of OSB . so those eves are ripping about the finished width of yoyr gable and soffit overhang, layout should be started from the center of the rafter that is directly over the lower wall, then all your sheets will fall OC across the roof , IN THOREY , unless you screw up    

[youngins]

I am getting it now - thanks to all for your time (and patience) in explaining it to me.

Chris

[PEG688]

I am getting it now - thanks to all for your time (and patience) in explaining it to me.

Chris

Your welcome ,good luck   PEG

[jonsey/downunder]

But thanks for adding to the confusion

No worries Mate, happy to help any way I can.  

Yep! It's summer down here, although, sometimes it's hard to tell. We get a few days of forty plus then the next thing you know it's cold enough to scare a brass monkey. The garden has died and gone to heaven, at least the parts that are not native have, no water, except for drinking. Most of the country is in drought and the parts that are not on fire are mostly wind blown dust and dirt. Our area has been drought declared for the last 5 years so for us it's just more of the same. At least the thermals are pumping, so I may drag the hang glider out and get in a bit of air time.  

[John Raabe]

Geez, it sounds like that old Australian Mel Gibson movie, Mad Max. No water but lots of dust. Five years of drought is just about enough. I think that was about when my grandparents left their dust bowl farm in South Dakota and headed west. I always thought they settled in Washington state because of all the rain and water.

Grandma told stories about three years of crops coming up out of the ground only to be eaten by a dark cloud of grasshoppers. When the crops where gone the hoppers would eat the laundry off the closeline (for the moisture perhaps).

I'm sure it's not that bad down there, but (what is it I put in here? - creeky mate?) you deserve a climate break soon.

PS - Now when I go back to the old homestead in South Dakota the feilds are green and the corn is as high as an elephant's eye. Things will likely change there too.

[PEG688]

Jeesh and here I thought I'd come read then easy simple answer to the layout question   And your chit chattin with Joneys bout the weather

 I still think Youngins might be more assured if you , John,  chimed in with some of that Architect mumbo jumbo, Gad day mates , PEG  

[glenn kangiser]

Crikey, Jonesy.  I think you and I ought to sit down by the old black stump with these two Washingtonians and teach them a couple of words of Aussie language.  Probably wouldn't take you much longer than the time it takes to shotgun a few tinnies.

I studied at the Cane Toad institute of Aussie speak.  Now lets go blow the froth off a few coldies, eh?  G'day mate.