Martin Shooting in Florida

[Squirl]

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

If Zimmerman assaulted Martin as you have theorized and the witness saw it all,  Zimmerman would be under arrest right now.

Zimmerman got what was coming to him;

So a person following a teen, possibly for racist reasons, deserves to be beaten to death? 
To tell you the truth, I was waiting for that response.  I expected someone to find it acceptable to respond to non-violent implications of racism, such as following someone, with violence.

[peternap]

To add to that, is it reasonable force to shoot someone because you're losing a fist fight...I've broken my nose a half dozen times and never shot anyone over it.

[NM_Shooter]

If he assaulted Martin (by grabbibng him), Martin is certainly justified in defending himself, and if Zimmerman ends up on the losing end of the tussle, it can hardly be described as Martin "attacking" Zimmerman. 

Well, you know the saying...."if your Aunt had a moustache she would be your Uncle". 

Speculation of what occurred has no place in determining a man's guilt. 

[NM_Shooter]

To add to that, is it reasonable force to shoot someone because you're losing a fist fight...I've broken my nose a half dozen times and never shot anyone over it.

I don't know.  You tell me exactly what happened and how you know the facts.  Once again, we don't know what occurred.  Did Martin knock down Zimmerman from behind, begin to punch him in the face, then grab for his gun?

Consider this scenario : You were attacked from behind, knocked down, and are on the losing end of a fistfight with a younger man on top of you unrelenting in his attack.  He is grabbing for your holstered gun which you currently have control of.  You are in mortal fear for your life.  In the last second before that gun is pried away, what is your response?  I can see that as a legitimate situation in which deadly force is well justified.

Once again, I am suggesting that we not condemn or come to conclusions without knowing what the hell we are talking about. 

[Squirl]

Generally peter you are correct. If someone punches you in the nose and breaks it, you don't usually have the right to shoot him in the head or chest, although there are plenty of people killed with the first punch.  Also using excessive force in self defense that results in the attacker's death is not murder.

According to Zimmerman, and implied though the articles that it was confirmed by a witness and the physical evidence, Martin was bouncing Zimmerman's head off of the concrete.  That is beyond a fist fight.  I can't even count how many times I have read that resulting in someone's death.  The police initially could not disprove this chain of events.  It will now be up to a grand jury.

I feel sorriest for the witness.  If in fact he did witness something contrary to what everyone is in a fever pitch over, he will likely be attacked either verbally or physically, all because he told the truth. 

ABC changed the article already.  The original one that I had posted the Attorney General was saying what a bad case it was and how it would be difficult to prosecute with what they know. 

[peternap]

I don't know.  You tell me exactly what happened and how you know the facts.  Once again, we don't know what occurred.  Did Martin knock down Zimmerman from behind, begin to punch him in the face, then grab for his gun?

Consider this scenario : You were attacked from behind, knocked down, and are on the losing end of a fistfight with a younger man on top of you unrelenting in his attack.  He is grabbing for your holstered gun which you currently have control of.  You are in mortal fear for your life.  In the last second before that gun is pried away, what is your response?  I can see that as a legitimate situation in which deadly force is well justified.

Once again, I am suggesting that we not condemn or come to conclusions without knowing what the hell we are talking about.

Unfortunately for Batman, guardian of the neighborhood, what happened after he decided to chase this kid, is unimportant!
I don't think he'll find a jury that doesn't knit a noose while hearing the arguments.

For most of us that have to wrestle with Legislators every year, especially here where I have to constantly out maneuver the Va Tech wailing wall, he ain't getting any sympathy. I hear the phrase "There will be blood in the streets" a hundred times a year and this idiot just reinforces their argument.

[Squirl]

I don't think he'll find a jury that doesn't knit a noose while hearing the arguments.

Maybe.  Based on the preliminary evidence of a possible credible eye witness, I doubt you could convince 12 people beyond a reasonable doubt of murder.  With even one or two dissenters, I would bet a jury would probably settle on excessive force manslaughter.  What we see and what they see will be night and day different.

[peternap]

A lot will depend on the jury pool in the area.
I saw an interview with his lawyer today and it doesn't look like he has any rabbits to pull out of his hat. Just the self defense argument.

Judging from the reaction here, where no one really cares what happens in Florida, he's toast if the Blacks there make up a portion of the jury and the other members don't want to drag it out.

Now the sentiment may calm down if someone kills him for the Panther reward...but that won't help him any.

[peternap]

It's also possible the Grand Jury won't return a true bill....but that's very unusual.

[Pox Eclipse]

So a person following a teen, possibly for racist reasons, deserves to be beaten to death?

Zimmerman died?  That changes everything, doesn't it?

[NM_Shooter]

Zimmerman died?  That changes everything, doesn't it?

Yes.....

Absolutely changes everything if he believed his life at risk.  He would just need a Grand Jury to come to the same conclusion. 

My prediction is that this is unlikely to go to trial, unless the prosecutor gets extreme pressure from the public.  If it goes to trial, he might be found guilty of manslaughter, but nothing more.  He may even be acquitted. 

[mgramann]

This story has really been developing.  It seems that the initial story/video posted here doesn't follow with the witness accounts.

[dug]

I was forced to take a long drive today and passed some of the time listening to AM radio- Rush, Hannity and the like. Though I full well expected it I was still somewhat grilled to hear them attempt to turn this into a political issue, with the usual crying of "see how the left is twisting this issue! They are attempting to divide this nation!!" and many references to Martin's choice of clothes and the fact that he was found with marijuana residue at some point in his past. Of course there was no mention of Zimmerman's past, which is loaded with red flags for anyone who cares to take a look.

The fact is that Zimmerman pursued Martin, and I aint no fancy big city lawyer but it would seem that he gave up his "stand your ground defense" right then and there. The fact that Martin may have stopped to defend himself, and subsequently found himself in a fight with Zimmerman should come as no surprise to anyone but I have a very hard time believing that Zimmerman, an angry cop wannabe who appears to be a lot larger and meaner looking than Martin, found himself getting so pummeled by this kid that his only resort was to shoot him dead.

I'm not saying "Hang him!" and I understand and fully support that people are innocent until proven guilty but there seems sufficient evidence for an arrest of some sort. If he is innocent, fine- that's what the courts are supposed to settle.

[NM_Shooter]

the fact that he was found with marijuana residue at some point in his past.

That would have been the week before.  He was suspended from school at the time this occurred.

Of course there was no mention of Zimmerman's past, which is loaded with red flags for anyone who cares to take a look.

He did some questionable things.  According to net rumor, he called 911 46 times since January.  So what was different about this instance that made him shoot in reported self defense?

The fact is that Zimmerman pursued Martin, and I aint no fancy big city lawyer but it would seem that he gave up his "stand your ground defense" right then and there. The fact that Martin may have stopped to defend himself, and subsequently found himself in a fight with Zimmerman should come as no surprise to anyone but I have a very hard time believing that Zimmerman, an angry cop wannabe who appears to be a lot larger and meaner looking than Martin, found himself getting so pummeled by this kid that his only resort was to shoot him dead.

The timing of pursuit makes no difference.  Pursuit does not make Zimmerman the aggressor.  He claims he left Martin, was returning to his car, when Martin asked him "do you have a problem with me?" to which he replied "no".  He claims Martin then said "well now you do", and was punched in the nose and attacked relentlessly. 

I don't find it surprising that the picture that is circulated of Martin is a baby faced picture appearing to be 12 years old or so.  The other, more recent  picture that has surfaced is not getting as much publicity. 

My opinion of this is that Zimmerman appears to be a racist and wanted to be a tough guy.  He met up with what appears to be a thug-in-training who had some attitude issues of his own. 

I would not want to be on this jury. 

The moral of this story is that neighborhood watch is better off armed with a camera than with a gun. 

[MountainDon]

... and being suspended from school for some MJ residue has nothing to do with this. I believe toxicoligy tests after his death indicated nothing, IIRC.

[Windpower]

Excactly correct Don

here is the video of Zimmerman being taken into custody from abc News after his horrific life threatening fight with a thug that 'broke his nose and was beating his head into the concrete'

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-video-blood-bruises-108022/

look for yourself -- no blood no wounds no bumps on his head just a nice shiny bald scalp

maybe Zimmerman is not telling the truth

maybe Zimmerman knew he would be able to lie his way out of this one like the domestic violence arrests and the battery of a police officer arrest -- just call his dad the Florida judge and get out of jail free

[Windpower]

More here



http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10915887-police-video-shows-george-zimmerman-shortly-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

[NM_Shooter]

... and being suspended from school for some MJ residue has nothing to do with this. I believe toxicoligy tests after his death indicated nothing, IIRC.

Other than this was a young man making very poor decisions in whom he was hanging out with, in possession of, and what he was condoning. 

If ignoring these circumstances, and if that has nothing to do with situation, then I contend that Zimmerman's behavior in the past also has nothing to do with this.  We should only consider the events of that night, which has an eye witness supporting Zimmerman's story.

The press is painting this as a young, baby faced boy with skittles being gunned down by a violent racist. 

I'm going to wait to see what evidence is presented. 

[NM_Shooter]

Article from yesterday at 3:21pm, indicating that the autopsy and toxicology reports are sealed.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/320897/20120328/trayvon-martin-autopsy-report-toxicology-case-zimmerman.htm

Please post any references proving otherwise.

(In light of how rapidly people try to read in between the lines, note that I am not saying that he was under the influence.  I am only saying that for us to declare him clean of illegal drugs is not something that we can do at this time.)

[MountainDon]

Probably right that Zimmerman's past numbers of calls to 911 also have nothing to do with this case. Especially as it would seem he never pulled a gun on anyone before.

As for the lab results, I thought I had read/heard a media report, but that or I could have been wrong on that.

Oh, but the screw up with tests was that the police never bothered to have Zimmerman tested which you would have thought they'd do as a cover your ass sort of thing.

Zimmerman doesn't look like he was beat up, head bashed on the ground.....


Too bad this didn't happen in any number of places in the UK. We'd then have surveillance videos from at least three different views.     Ya gotta admit that would help to sort out what transpired.

[Squirl]

Bruises take days to form.  He was treated by paramedics for a few hours before he was taken into police custody for questioning.  I can't imagine a good parametic would leave him bloody. A grainy security video wouldn't show much.  I would be more interested in the paramedics report.

His father was a magistrate (warrants/bail) judge in Virginia, not Florida.  Many states don't even require magistrates judges to be lawyers.  That would have little to no bearing on the case.

I do take issue with the size debate.  It seems the last pictures they have of the teen were when he was 14, or that is all anyone is showing. The attorney general of Florida even stated that the size of Martin would make it difficult to prosecute Zimmerman.   By her account Martin was 6'-3" a full 6" taller than Zimmerman.  I don't know where the 250lb weight issue on Zimmerman came in.  Some reports list him at 170 and from the video, that would appear correct for a man 5'-9".  Martin was a well built athlete too, while the extra weight Zimmerman had on him, looks mostly in his gut.

I am very interested that one officer recommended prosecution to the district attorney of: Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act

782.11  Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.--Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

So one officer believed Martin was unlawfully attacking Zimmerman, but killing Martin was not necessary.  My assumption is because of the size of Martin (cited by the attorney general as one of the key factors in Zimmerman's self defense claim), was the reason the district attorney did not decide to go it alone and immediately indict Zimmerman.  It is still going before a grand jury, as long as the prosecutors don't do any misconduct, they should be protected from wrongful prosecution.

The domestic violence wasn't an arrest, it was a protection from abuse request (temporary restraining order). He also filed against her, which was also granted.   They don't meet the standard of any criminal charge.  The person accused doesn't even have the right to face their accuser, which is a constitutional protection, or is usually even interviewed. 

I find it interesting that you would cite to his battery of a police officer charge having credibility.  You frequently point to many articles and sources of the same charges as trumped up by police against people they don't like.  I would think the fact that they were dismissed would be more evidence towards this.

Based on some of the possible racist motivations and his background I would put little stock in what Zimmerman states.  I would put more stock in credible third party witnesses or physical evidence.

[mgramann]

I honestly don't know who to believe.  Some witness accounts support Zimmerman, some Martin.  It seems that even some of the so-called witnesses may have an agenda.

A huge amount of reasonable doubt here.  I could easily see a D.A. thinking it would be a waste of a trial.

[peternap]

I pretty much agree with Squirl except that bruises and swelling in that severe beating are immediate. They get worse over time but are very evident right away. The video was bad but he didn't look too bad to me.

Magistrates aren't important in Va. They are inferior court Judges but the bottom level, and very rarely a lawyer or even have a college degree. They are who will take the job and often, part time.

They are planning to bring it before the Grand Jury in April and it's almost certain they'll return a true bil, then the court gets it and the facts will start coming out....and the BS!

Despite any of this, it's causing a lot of emotional outcry we don't need here.

[NM_Shooter]

Despite any of this, it's causing a lot of emotional outcry we don't need here.

Amen!!!!!!!!!

[muldoon]

I still don't understand why this is still news.  People get shot everyday.  People lie everyday.  I hate this news story.  Not only has it set racial tensions back at least 30 years in this country, the way the media and politicians have jumped on it reeks of the mindset to continue to divide people in this country.  Frankly it makes me sick.  I still do not think this is a race issue at the core of it. 

From my earlier comment more than a week ago; there are no winners here.  And the more I see people debating and taking sides on this (and it indeed seems to be everywhere) ..  the more I am sure that many are just parroting the opinions they have been fed.