14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula

[OlJarhead]

"seems the oven controls require more power then my refrigerator does!"

Maybe its a glow bar in the oven, from my reading, they need several hundred (500ish) to keep the oven going.

watts?  That would make sense as it drew a lot of power from the system.  Saw my voltages drop to below 60% while it was on but then bounced back up right away after it cut off

[considerations]

Whoops...yup, watts. 

[considerations]

Ok....I have PROPANE HEAT    This is a step up.

[MountainDon]

 

[considerations]

Ok - Today's quiz.

I have an outside light "controlled" by an indoor switch.  The switch has a little light in it so I can find it in the dark and turn on the outside light.  I think there is something not quite right. 

The little light in the switch gets brighter and brighter, and then gets dim, repeat, ad nauseum.  Somewhere in that cycle one (yep only one) of the outside bulbs flashes. 

When I noticed it, I immediately replaced the switch with another.  It still happens.

I have another indoor illuminated switch controlling an outside light and this is not happening.

I'm looking for troubleshooting ideas.  I thought switches were either on or off and I'm not comfortable with "unauthorized" electrical currents.
Pictures are worth a thousand words, so if you are inclined, you can watch the short video of what I just described.   



Thanks in advance for any ideas regarding this.

[PEG688]

 Is this a off grid power source?   Or standard 110 v power from a PUD?

You have a problem either way I'd think.    Shut off the power to that switch and pull it out of the box and  look for a loose wire , wire nut , screw the wire is hooked to the switch with , If the wires to the switch are in the push in to hook up slots , give them a yank to see if any pop out , it should be almost impossible to pull a wire out of the quick connect slots by hand without pliers. If any pop out they'd be highly suspect as part of , or the source of the issue.

[rick91351]

I would guess PEG is right on.  However should be easy to track.  Start there and trace back to the place you split from.  If you do not find it there look for gremlins, elves, hobbits and trolls.  Myself I think it is a loose wire nut.  Do you have any over crowded J Boxes?  Some times when you go to shoving and folding and folding and shoving to get them all inside tension occurs and wire nuts loosen.     

[Rob_O]

Are you using the same type of bulb on both of the outdoor lights?

[considerations]

"Is this a off grid power source?"  Yes - Solar/Batteries/Gen channeled through a Prosine 2.0 inverter.

"Are you using the same type of bulb on both of the outdoor lights?" No, they are both LEDs but the other one looks similar to a traditional incandescent bulb.

"Shut off the power to that switch and pull it out of the box and  look for a loose wire , wire nut , screw the wire is hooked to the switch with , If the wires to the switch are in the push in to hook up slots , give them a yank to see if any pop out , it should be almost impossible to pull a wire out of the quick connect slots by hand without pliers. If any pop out they'd be highly suspect as part of , or the source of the issue."

"Start there and trace back to the place you split from.  If you do not find it there look for gremlins, elves, hobbits and trolls."

Thought I had when I replaced the switch, but I'll do it again.   Thanks for the coaching, I'll report back.

[rick91351]

Wow it might be a funky LED of some type.  Move bulb a to bulb b and try that.

[Rob_O]

Move bulb a to bulb b and try that.

Exactly. Changing the switch didn't change anything so attack the other end of the circuit

[MountainDon]

Does this happen all the time? Or does this only happen when there are no electrical devices in use at all; no other lights, fans, radios, or anything, other than the switch pilot lights?

AND, does that inverter have a "search" function. If you are not sure about that,  that is the sort of thing where the inverter looks for, searches for, a device that needs power. It's sort of asleep. Like when a regular, non pilot light equipped, switch is turned on, the inverter then sees the need to supply 120 VAC power to that device and then turns on the inverter AC output.

Our Outback inverter has that feature and it is programmable to load. It sends out a pulse (interval is programmable too). When a load is sensed it turns on. The trigger load is adjustable/programmable down to where the switch pilot light can be sensed or not sensed. I have ours set to where the switch pilot will turn on the inverter. Stepping the sensitivity one "notch" and I can make the switch alone not trip the inverter into action.

If this is the case, then that pilot light should stayed lighted at a constant illumination level when any other device (light, appliance, whatever) is on and drawing power. If one switch does it and another does not it could be because of some internal difference in the power draws.

The regularity makes me believe this is the case. All the GFCI receptacles we have in the cabin have green LED indicator lights. When the inverter is in search mode they all blink with metronome like regularity. They glow constant as soon as a device is in use.

Does this same thing happen when house power comes direct from a generator?

If you simply remove the exterior lamp what happens then?

[rick91351]

So MD with the inverter in this case is looking for a demand to load? 

[MountainDon]

Looking for a demand to fill. That's what it seems like to me.

Search is a handy function especially if the sensing load and pulse can be programmed. The Outback also lets the user program the delay between sensing a load and powering up. Using the search function saves battery capacity. It has its drawbacks. Our microwave doesn't draw enough power when it sits there just plugged in. It doesn't draw enough power to trip the inverter unless the inverter sensitivity is turned way up. That causes the inverter to run all the time though.

I wired the microwave receptacle as well as the receptacles for the TV, the radio and the recepatcle I use for the laptop through there own wall switches with built in pilot lights. So for the microwave I found I need to have an LED night light plugged into the receptacle alomng with the microwave. When we want to microwave, we flip the switch on, the LED lamp lights, the inverter powers up and then the microwave will work.

Sounds complicated but with forethought to placing the switches and receptacles (mostly split to one half switched and the other half unswitched) it has now become second nature. We use the pilot light switches for exterior lights too, BUT the opposite type. By that I mean the pilot is ON only when the switch is ON; that serves as notice that something is turned on. All the pilot lighted switches I have are of that type. I wanted a reminder that something was drawing power more than I needed to be able to find the switch in the dark.

[MountainDon]

Added comment:  Actually it looks like the inverter is supplying enough power to keep the pilot illuminated with a soft glow, but it's still searching for more power to supply. Sort of strange.    But maybe that's how this Xantrex works. I looked up the 2.0 manual and it does have what they refer to as "load sensing".

If the switch pilot is doing this thing, does the inverter make noises? If a device is turned on does the inverter seem to come alive? If that's the right word?

I can hear an soft but audible click from our inverter when it is searching.

[Rob_O]

consideration: There must be some of that "unauthorized" current flow for the light in the switch to illuminate.

If the bulb uses a voltage regulator circuit instead of just a resistor that current could build across the circuit until the outside light flashes and the process repeats. Move the problem bulb to the other outdoor socket and let us know what happens

[TheWire]

I second Rob_O's hunch.  Those switches are made to light-up using the current leaking through an incandescent bulb when the switch is off.  Normally the tiny amount of leakage current would never allow an incandescent bulb to get close to illuminating, but an LED bulb with its circuit that allows it to use 120VAC could sit there and charge itself up until it had enough voltage to begin conducting then use up it charge in a flash.  It could also be the load sensing on the inverter or a combination of both.  Turn another light on to keep the inverter on and stop it from doing the load sensing pulse then see what happens.  I would guess those illuminated switches will cause issues with a off-grid home that has a load sensing inverter.

If you need to see the switches in the dark consider a glow in the dark wall plate or an small 12V LED light in the area.  I have about 6 of these LED lights over my stairs, in my hall, bath and on my porch.  They are waterproof, use 0.04A at 12V, cost $6, throw enough light to read by or safely light a stairwell and last 10+ years.  http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&category=MLED&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2FLPC_malibu.htm

[considerations]

Ok.....TheWire, Rob_O, and again Mountain Don get the gold stars for correctly answering the "quiz" question.  However, I'm grateful to all of you who weighed in on the issue.  It was the group conversation that evolved into a working theory. 

I pulled the LED spotlights and replaced them with incandescent....just to save me going through the exercise of searching for bad connections again.  And....(drum roll)...with the incandescent bulbs there is no flashing bulb and no building up and fading of the glow in the switch. Thank you all for putting your minds to this issue, electricity has my respect, and I admit I was worried that I'd done something poorly.  I will now find an alternate way to show the way to the switch in a dark room....Whew.

On another happy note, I now have 3 little windows in the stairwell....and even on a gloomy NW day, they really make a difference. 












And Mountain Don.....The little propane heater that we both now have is more than adequate for my 14 x 24 with an open loft.  We have not had our coldest days, yet, but I've not had to use it past a 1/3 of the dial above "LOW" (without a fire supplementing the heat).....and last night it hit the high 30's outside.  I'm looking forward to testing it in the coldest days. 

So, you forum lurkers....here's another fantastic validation of the value of this forum.  The cost of the plans gets very small when considering the "free" support and advice coming from super experienced participants in this forum. 

[OlJarhead]

Amen there!

I've often thought about some auxiliary heat for mine also but more for helping to get it up to temp when we show up after being away in the winter -- last year we once arrived to find the cabin at 18 degrees!  Took 4 hours to get above freezing I think -- or it was two hours to get above and 3 more to get to 50...can't remember but you get the idea.

Anyway, it would also be useful for the composting toilet shed -- keeping it above 55 degrees would mean it would thaw out and actually work for us...but so far that isn't an issue as it's got plenty of room to work as a holding tank through the winter

[considerations]

"composting toilet shed -- keeping it above 55 degrees would mean it would thaw out and actually work for us"

I'm seriously considering the Sun-mar with the little heater in the composting part....Living here full time and the bathroom likely the coldest room in the house....it would be a real bummer if it did not compost properly. 

I think it only uses a couple hundred watts when it gets too cold....but I'll have to look it up again....and choose carefully.  200 watts counts around here.

[OlJarhead]

"composting toilet shed -- keeping it above 55 degrees would mean it would thaw out and actually work for us"

I'm seriously considering the Sun-mar with the little heater in the composting part....Living here full time and the bathroom likely the coldest room in the house....it would be a real bummer if it did not compost properly. 

I think it only uses a couple hundred watts when it gets too cold....but I'll have to look it up again....and choose carefully.  200 watts counts around here.

The dehydrator on the Sunmar AC/DC 2000 draws up to 300 or 360 watts in AC mode when the heater is on....When I need to run that (ok make then when I guess I need to do that) I run the generator.  Usually I couple this with other tasks like running a saw etc...but mostly we don't worry about i t because the unit in DC mode uses very little energy and works fine for weekend use (we use it every other weekend pretty much all year long with only occasional week long stays).

[MountainDon]

I do not recall the wattage of the bottom heater in the stand alone AC models. We have that. When it is freezing here I don't think it would help much unless the toilet was inside. Then the warm room would keep it warm.

Ours is outside and there is no composting from late fall through spring. It was not a great choice for us.

Next year I'm building an outdoor loo (privy). Much of what we collect in the SunMar will be cycled through it. For the past couple years it gets burned with a pile of debris, tree slash.

[OlJarhead]

I do not recall the wattage of the bottom heater in the stand alone AC models. We have that. When it is freezing here I don't think it would help much unless the toilet was inside. Then the warm room would keep it warm.

Ours is outside and there is no composting from late fall through spring. It was not a great choice for us.

Next year I'm building an outdoor loo (privy). Much of what we collect in the SunMar will be cycled through it. For the past couple years it gets burned with a pile of debris, tree slash.

I think the stand alone units must have a small capacity compared to the Centrex 2000's -- having said that I've seriously considered a Dickson wood stove (8000 btus) for my Composter Shed.

[MountainDon]

300 watts on the AC and the AC/DC models

Too much for heating by PV modules, IMO.

[considerations]

"Next year I'm building an outdoor loo..."

I've been living with one for several years (the blue plastic kind)....the "adventure" wears a little thin when there is ice on the inside walls.  The Excel Compact model, according to the website uses 200 watts, and the time it would kick on the most is in the winter when there is little sun to garner power from the panels.  I still have more thinking to do.  At least the plastic loo is reliable, and a nice young man (poor soul) cleans my "bathroom" every week.  I'm pondering the cost/benefit of the savings from not paying for loo rental and service vs. the cost of generator gas.  Certainly more panels would help some.

Crape' Diem