The American Nightmare

[Windpower]

 from your name 'bmancanfly' I am not sure you are a pilot or a wannabe


If you were a pilot then you would know absolutely that the Official Government Conspiracy Theory is simply impossible

Passenger jet planes do not and cannot fly faster than Vmo

this one simple FACT discredits the whole official government conspiracy theory

thousands and thousands of people kept the Manhattan project secret and in fact there is still much that is secret

so I guess people can keep a secret

Richard Gage has recently published some of his investigative work in a peer reviewed journal

the dust from the WTC contains weaponized thermite

Look it up yourself, I refuse to spoon feed facts to sheep anymore


People that cannot believe their own eyes are, by definition, delusional

Thank you for providing witness that Paul Craig Roberts is correct in his analysis of US citizens

[dug]

The whole truther movement is nothing more than a paranoid delusion.  Nothing more than innuendo completely unsupported by the facts.

I really wish that were the case, I would love to be able to believe the official story and go on with business as usual but objectively viewed I think it is the 911 commission report that is completely unsupported by facts. There are so many suspect issues involved in this crime that it seems insane not to conduct a full investigative review, that one has not been implemented  seems cause for alarm in itself.

Hundreds of pieces of this unsolved puzzle contain hard incriminating evidence that remain unanswered and uncontested. Hundreds of decorated pilots with a lifetime of experience under their belt have attested to the hijackers odds of hitting the building in the first place, most difinitively say impossible and the remainder conclude it bould be highly unlikely. How are we to believe that the worlds greatest air force was unable to intercept the hijackers? Only if they were told to stand down.

I could swallow a few of the odd events that occurred on that day, but it is impossible to ingest the entire web of fallacies.

Terrorstorm is highly worth watching and contains oodles of evidence, not theories, against the Bush administration and many others relating to this event.

I think that delusional is a good word to describe the majority of the populace who completely buy the governments hole ridden version.

[archimedes]

My point is,  if you want to put up an alternative version of what happened,  then it has to be supported by facts.  And none of the truther theories contain anything more than innuendo.   And the official version is completely supported by  fact, science, history and even a basic understanding of current events.

I'd like to believe in unicorns too, but until someone produces some valid evidence that one exists............

Occam's Razor;  the simpliest explanation is almost always the right one.

The 9/11 attacks were not even that complicated or sophisticated to pull off.  Why the need for an elaborate conspiracy?  The terrorist attacks against us had been building for years.  9/11 was just the next logical progression.

One of the hallmarks of conspiracy theorists it that "everyone else just doesn't get it",  "we have the truth and the sheeple just don't get it".  Classic conspiracy theory,  persued with almost a religious fervor.  

It's sad to admit that a rag tag band of terrorist put our multi trillion dollar defense system to shame,  but it's the truth.  Ever hear of the Maginot Line?

The facts and science aren't on the side of the truthers.   But that won't stop many people from trying to personally profit from the doubters.  It's become a whole cottage industry (no pun intended).

Oh, and about thermite
http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
totally debunked

[dug]

if you want to put up an alternative version of what happened,  then it has to be supported by facts.  And none of the truther theories contain anything more than innuendo.   And the official version is completely supported by  fact, science, history and even a basic understanding of current events.

I don't pretend to know what really happened but if you believe the above statement you must depend on information exclusively from major American media. If you dug into it at all you would be forced to realize that the wackos on the other side of the fence have a lot more to cling to than innuendos, unfortunately. A substantial portion of the rest of the world doesn't believe it either because they have the advantage of looking at the matter more objectively.

Maybe some folks pursue it with a religious fever because it is so damn important.

[archimedes]

I respect your point of view Dug.  But every point the truthers make has been refuted,  point by point. 

When your watching a magician it seems like he's doing magic.  But we know he isn't.  The truthers do the same thing with words, to mislead people with suspicion and innuendo.  Leaving the viewer with the impression that "wow this must be true".   Until  you start pulling their arguements apart piece by piece,  and then it all falls apart.

Suspicion is not the basis for a theory.

No harm in disagreeing with me.   But lacking any solid evidence,  my mind remains unchanged.

[dug]

Well technically suspicion, or speculacion is the basis for theory.

In the days following 9/11 I remember events transpiring that to me seemed very eerie beyond the obvious tragedy. I guess I was forming a mental theory that things were not exactly as we were being told. This was well before I had heard about any official conspiracy theories and I felt obligated to do some investigating on my own, and what I found was sobering. There may not be any one fatally damning piece of evidence against the commission report but added together, the facts (yes facts) pose a formidable challenge to the accepted point of view.

If a fair trial were held in a legitimant court with unbiased jurors (have to travel to another planet to find those), given all the facts I think the jury would deliberate for about 10 minutes. If the verdict were as it stands now I think you would see a reaction akin to the aftermath of the OJ trial. Well maaaybe he didn't do it but.....

By the way I respect your and all other opinions as well. I for one hope I am wrong.

[glenn kangiser]

Bman, it is sad to see your eyes closed so tightly - I doubt that you will ever be able to see reality again.  Probably blinded by Fox News.

I am also a pilot, did my private, instrument and commercial.  

The fact is that it is impossible for any plane to get that far off of a commercial flight plan without being intercepted by the US military, unless they were ordered to let them go by an official having power over them.  ATC would have heads rolling and that is a fact.  The flight controllers were concerned and made a tape of the events.  Their superior destroyed it.  That is a fact.

When my sister called to tell me of the terrorist's planes hitting the trade WTC, I immediately said BS.....  that is impossible even with the safeguards in place at the time.  I have been intercepted near Nevada in severe turbulence and I was only a little off course.  No way these guys flew around all of that time with an AFB under them without our help.

I was on to them the minute it happened.  Believe the official fairy tales if you want but if you really want to know what happened you need to question what you are being fed.

[glenn kangiser]

Military officers also question the official story.

http://www.mo911truth.org/

[Shawn B]

The History channel did a great documentary on the truther movement where they eviserated every truther theory one by one -  quite interesting.  

Is this the same History Channel that believes the "pancake" theory, and even showed a short computer generated image of one floor hitting the other, then the other, etc, etc; But showed the main interior (major load bearing) steel columns standing intact? I have no problem with them showing that C.G.I. and telling people that is how a pancake collapse happens. That's not what happened. The Twin Towers did not suffer a pancake collapse and the steel columns were not left standing. There is plenty of picture and video evidence to determine this. In fact there are photo's showing the main steel columns with apparent  angler cuts on them....to make them fail. Also the Towers fell at nearly free-fall speed....as if nothing was below the collapsing floors. This defies basic physics and in itself suggests that something was clearing the floors below....explosives, thermate/thermite, etc. I suggest watching the documentary 9-11 Hero. It shows the last man to leave the Towers, William Rodriguez who worked as a janitor there and probably knew the Towers better than anybody. He talks about what he heard and saw.

I suppose you believe that Osama bin Laden is roaming around the very mountainous (more rugged and remote than anything in the lower 48) border of Afghanistan and Pakistan with his kidney dialysis machine, just barely evading air force and CIA drones, special forces, cruise missile attacks and fighter/bomber missions? Did you ever question how fast the Bush administration and Congress drafted and passed the infamous "Patriot Act" ? It takes several months to craft a Bill that size and complex. They did it in a few weeks  The fact is that elements of the various U.S. intelligence agencies, military industrial complex, and some heavy political puppet masters had a hand in this.

[Windpower]

bman

quote
Oh, and about thermite
http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
totally debunked
unquote

debunkers  

No

Go read here what over 1200 Architects and Engineers have to say

They have proof of weaponized thermite in dust collected from the debris of the WTC


http://www.ae911truth.org/

that's it,  I am not wasting any more of my time on ya bman

[archimedes]

I was on to them the minute it happened. 

Well, why bother looking at any evidence if you know what happened before any evidence was available?  

Maybe you did it?  I mean you've got a pilots license, you had some Muslims at you house recently,  where were you on 9/11?
I'll start the truthers 2.0 movement.   I've got more evidence for my theory then the truthers do for theirs.

[peternap]

You don't have a log cabin in LA do you?

[glenn kangiser]

I was on to them the minute it happened.  

Well, why bother looking at any evidence if you know what happened before any evidence was available?  

Maybe you did it?  I mean you've got a pilots license, you had some Muslims at you house recently,  where were you on 9/11?
I'll start the truthers 2.0 movement.   I've got more evidence for my theory then the truthers do for theirs.

I wouldn't waste a good plane to change the will of the public and make them agreeable to sacrifice the lives of their children and those of innocent victims but it is obvious that our politicians and big business don't have my scruples.

It's almost unbelievable that you will buy lies that defy physics, yet you will not look at questions that need honest answers.  I seldom see that kind of fear of knowing the truth.

I do not understand why you support them so steadfastly.  Is it because you may have voted for them and feel partially responsible for their crimes?  It's OK... we know you did not know or suspect that they would go through with it.....it's  OK ..calm down .... it wasn't your fault.... no more need to hide... we will not hurt you...

[archimedes]

If you think I supported the Bush adm. you are sadly mistaken.  I was opposed to the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act long before it was fashionable to do so.  And I never,  ever,  believe Fox News.

This isn't about politics. 

I simple don't think the truther conspiracies have any valid proof - and yes I have listened to them all.  But they have all been debunked with valid scientific evidence.  As far as the Towers coming down,  gravity works.  No great conspiracy is necessary or evident.  You're free to believe differently if you choose to.

Asserting that those who don't buy into the conspiracy theories are sticking their heads in the sand is,  in my opinion,  not bourne out by the facts.  The reason why so many Americans don't believe the conspiracy theories is because they are so implausible.

However,  we are in agreement about the warmongering that goes on in this country.  I'm completely on board with that.  It's shameful and wasteful, in human cost and treasure.

[Pox Eclipse]

I was on to them the minute it happened.  Believe the official fairy tales if you want but if you really want to know what happened you need to question what you are being fed.

How many people in the government are in on these official secrets?  Hundreds? Thousands? This is the same government that is so incompetent, it cannot do anything better than private industry.  Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?  How can you believe they could keep a secret this big?

[Osama]

It makes my heart swell with pride to know that there is still controversy flying in the face of reason. Now I must retreat to my cave and hook up my dialysis machine. Your government makes it difficult to get around, but I still do.

[peternap]

Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?

Outsourcing !

[ScottA]

How many people in the government are in on these official secrets?  Hundreds? Thousands? This is the same government that is so incompetent, it cannot do anything better than private industry.  Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?  How can you believe they could keep a secret this big?

They didn't keep it secret, the whole world is on to them. As for the reason, lets call it motive, I point to 2 wars in progress a 3rd getting warmed up (Pakistan) and a 4th being sold as we speak (Iran). Not to mention the gutting of the constitution.

[glenn kangiser]

Believing that the towers could come down at freefall speed with no resistance or without toppling sideways due to damage being on one side is believing in fairy tales.  I work with structural steel.  They did not get a clear way to the ground without explosives. 

Building 7 was hit by nothing - had a small fire and 20 minutes before it fell it was announced on BBC that it had fallen --- while it was still standing - someone messed up their script.

It did not take that many to run the operation - just the right ones in the right places directing action.

They did not do that good a job of running the operation or that perfect a job of covering it up.  They have done an excellent job of brainwashing the sheep though. 

They know how mental trauma will blind the eyes of those who are afraid to see.  They are afraid to question what their mind was made to think happened.  They have spent billions of taxpayer dollars on research into brainwashing the masses and they know what works.

[glenn kangiser]

It makes my heart swell with pride to know that there is still controversy flying in the face of reason. Now I must retreat to my cave and hook up my dialysis machine. Your government makes it difficult to get around, but I still do.

Welcome to the forum, Osama.  Are you going to be back or just one comment?

Nice proxy.

[glenn kangiser]

Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?

Outsourcing !

You got that right, Peter.

120 or so got a free ride back to Israel after the event, no questions asked or allowed.  The Bin Laden family, partners of GHWB in the Carlyle Group got a ride out during the flight ban.  Cool.

The Mossad agents sent to film the event got out scott free and did a TV show about it when they got home.  Some of them were dressed as Arabs to help blame the Muslims.  Research it if you feel like it.  I already have.

[glenn kangiser]

How many people in the government are in on these official secrets?  Hundreds? Thousands? This is the same government that is so incompetent, it cannot do anything better than private industry.  Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernible reason?  How can you believe they could keep a secret this big?

They didn't keep it secret, the whole world is on to them. As for the reason, lets call it motive, I point to 2 wars in progress a 3rd getting warmed up (Pakistan) and a 4th being sold as we speak (Iran). Not to mention the gutting of the constitution.

You got it, Scott.  Everyone knows except our sheeple.  Blinded by the greatest country in the world syndrome.  Still thinking our people would not do this to their own.  I have news for you.  Our elite politicians have no love for the people of the US.   They are in their own world.  

Why do they not share our Social Security?  Why do they not share our health care?  Why did the bailout go through when the people were overwhelmingly against it?  How do your miserable choices for politicians allowed into office get made?  Why is the Supreme court installing and keeping in office criminals such as Bush or Obama?  Without Supreme court intervention neither would be or have been in office.  The elite own our "Supreme Court" system too.

[glenn kangiser]

What the rest of the world knows.  Read the comments after the article.  This is from a non-censored, non-mainstream forum and respondents are from all over the world.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/233791

This includes comments from a Muslim regarding Muslim behavior.

[glenn kangiser]

Food for thought.



Those who believe we did not assist 9/11 believe that our government has our best interests at heart... they love us and take care of us.

They know that Saudi Arabian terrorists stole jet liners and crashed them into the Twin Towers and hours later after the towers fell they willed building 7 to spontaneously fall completely to the ground in it's own footprint.  Silverstein was lying when he said he told them to pull it and he watched as it fell to the ground.   I can pretend that is true for a moment.

If our government loves us and is not owned by corporate interests, then why are we making deals to sell up to $90 Billion of planes, helicopters, weapons to Saudi Arabia ($60B) and upgrade their navy ($30B additional) when they attacked us (I'm still pretending we didn't assist it)?

Note that at the time of 9/11 Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia was considered a Bush Brother and was called Bandar Bush at times by them.  He buddy - got a few countrymen to help us pull off a little caper?

In reality I think GWB did not completely know what was going on during the 9/11 operation.  It looks more like Cheney and company had the helm with Bush just being sent around the states hiding to keep him out of the way -- the reason security info was leaked - secret codes etc about his whereabouts and plane location.

In the meantime Congolisa (sp) and Cheney were down in the basement of the Whitehouse (undisclosed location)  running out of air and frantically gasping, per her latest lie, as (per Minetta) Cheney ordered the USAF to remain grounded while the planes approached the WTC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20016181-503543.html

So - it's OK to arm them as long as we profit from it, no matter what 60% of America thinks they did on 9/11  ...

[Osama]

Welcome to the forum, Osama.  Are you going to be back or just one comment?

Nice proxy.

Proxys are a way of life unfortunately. Who knows who is watching and listening.

I do get upset that you believe I am dead and not responsible for 9/11.

I must go, can't be too careful, can't stay in one place too long.

OBL