Just Released: Dash Cam Video of Oklahoma Trooper Vs. EMT

[glenn kangiser]

That is what I was afraid would happen once we started locking, censoring and deleting per our moods and whims.

Note that there is also NO RESTRICTION on posting nice uplifting pretty stories either.  Feel free to do that if you wish.

[John Raabe]

OKee Dokee Guys...

Let's not get our undies all in a bunch.

I had no intention of turning this Off Topic area into a place for only kittens and butterflies.

I agree with Glenn's point:

"We should all be grown up enough to discuss the ugliness of the world that causes some of us to want to build a small home in the country. This off topic area is also for topics that influence decisions of small home builders --- community--- that want to get away from but be aware of the bad in the world to better take care of their families and friends.

This is a place for the idling engine.... a place to draw members to for their topics of interest so they will be there when a building question comes in.

True - some of it may be a bit ugly..... the world is sometimes ugly....toughen up so when reality sets in - we can face it."

This can be and should be a place for voicing opinions and we should probably be clearer about pointing that out... An opinion, no matter how dearly held, is not a reality - especially not for someone else.

There is lots of brutal stuff (and lots of heroic stuff) that happens when police and military folks are doing their jobs. Even though they can be well trained and (hopefully) disciplined, things can and do go wrong, especially in life and death moments. And remember, we are still dealing with stressed out imperfect human beings. Just like you and me!

At times the system can be setup to make "wrong" happen more than it should. That needs to be corrected quickly! When it isn't, faith in the entire system of law and order is eroded.

But people can get themselves worked up. When a forum thread turns into a contest to see who can get the most worked up about (pick your topic: police, inspectors, politicians, government bureaucrats) then it has reached the point where we need to step back and take a deep breath.

I do not want us to become a vehicle for spreading distrust and disgust and giving members the impression that anyone building a cabin has to have a problem with authority figures. Most of us get along fine with inspectors, police and our neighbors. Most of us move to the country to get back into nature and to perhaps expand our peaceful view of the world, not to hole up in a fortress and have a gun ready to pick off anyone we think works for "the government".

So, I ask you, where do we want to draw the line?

Just because I feel more comfortable with the view of country living outlined by Thoreau or Ken Carey than that of Ted Kaczynski, does that mean I should restrict the forum to just what fits my opinion?

As was pointed out earlier many forums have dropped all "off topic" discussions entirely as they too soon become toxic and potentially libelous. MountainDon has been willing to step in here and help out with our forum duties. His opinion on these issues is important to consider as is Glenn's as well.

Tricky problem. How to have free speech without being overwhelmed by the toxic stuff? The Enlightenment view of democracy is getting harder and harder to sustain. It helped, I suppose, when all the votes considered came from well educated white landed gentlemen. Even then tempers ran high on occasion.

So, are we doing a service here for our members or just providing a soapbox to stand on and rage at the world?

More wag, less bark --- at least, that is my hope. I know I don't plan to follow the Chinese model.

[glenn kangiser]

OK, John.  Just yanked my panties out of my crack and will enlarge on my thoughts.

A line seems to be a hard thing to draw without destroying the forum in my opinion.

If we are constantly walking on egg shells the forum will lose posters who visit off topics for their topics or others they are interested in.  I think that ones who are offended by the off topics will limit themselves to the safe topics.

True, we don't need catfights, but to prevent others from posting because we don't like their input is wrong also.  

Yes - we need to be decent to each other but we must also respect others interests or they will leave.  My above action was in response to a member complaint when this topic was abruptly closed with no possibility of alternate explanation or opposing view.  That is abuse of power rivaling dictatorship.

I believe that we just need to be decent to each other when discussing sensitive subjects, and I think the report to moderator is sufficient law regarding offensive postings.  I do not see the need to lock topics or censor things that don't pertain to true hate.

Pretending that something is hate speech because we don't like it is the in thing now.  

I would like to leave much of the decisions of what is offensive to the members via the report to moderator button, with the moderators removing only obviously bad stuff automatically.  I personally will not remove every cuss word unless I receive a complaint about it however I do not advocate it's use on the forum... leave me room at home though...

I don't like lines... makes me want to cross them.

I can list a long line of officials I do like... many building inspectors, highay patrols who have helped me, the Health Department official who fought the Scam California Water Resources Board on the septic issues.  Yes, lots of them.

The issue here is not the good ones.  The issue here that is commonly covered is to watch your back.... we are looking out for our fellow members - warning them that the whole world is not a nice pink fuzzy place.  If they do not look out for themselves - get some street smarts - they may be run over by the bad ones.  That is the point.

One of our Sheriffs here (yes most seem to be good at this point - at least on the surface) was afraid that the High School kids here may be killed for fighting with some valley gang members who had no second thoughts about ganging up on them and shooting them.  These kids were naive.  The Sheriff was not.  Only through education about the outside world can some of us back woods hicks hope to survive.

Yes... lets counter the bad news with more good news stories - that could be a start.

With your permission, I will now reinsert my panties.

[glenn kangiser]

Members, could you please comment on this topic - or topic hijack as you may view it--

I feel it is your forum and I would like to know what you think.

My goal is to keep as many members fairly happy here and feeling good about the forum as possible,  but to do that we need to know your thoughts. My goal is also to keep members interested in the forum without fear that they may be saying the wrong thing or get jumped on by a moderator. 

I don't want to see intimidation limiting our think tank.

Obviously we can't keep everyone totally happy all of the time but with tolerance of others feelings and views I think we may find the middle road, and possibly learn something we didn't know or wouldn't have considered in the process.

Thank you

[IronRanger]

I don't always make my point clear, but on this topic here it is:

I figure if the mainstream media won't do it (we all see/hear stories about heroic cops), then I'll help disseminate the info on the bad ones.  My hope is that public outrage will steer the bad ones away.  I don't believe I've posted a blanket story about LEOs, in general, as being "unworthy scum".  It's been directed at bad individuals.  They exist and they need to be exposed.  A criminal's a criminal.

If I need to, I'll post a disclaimer before each of my new posts to this topic, so it remains clear what the goal is.

[NM_Shooter]

Well, you know me.  I am intimidated easily  

I guess I am one of those people who are going to call this 1-800 number just to say "undecided".  

This is the section for "rants".  I am a little uncomfortable if it becomes the section for "attacks".  In this instance, I think that maybe this thread is primarily being used to propagate dislike for law enforcement.  I even posted an unsavory story that I had.  It is sort of moving in the "many cops are thugs" direction.  

Many cops are thugs.  I think that more are really good folks.  I know I've been assisted a few times in my life by kind law enforcement people.  I think many bosses are thugs too.

I also think that there is nothing really inappropriate in this thread though.  Allowing a person to express negative biases that they may hold is probably a free speech appropriate behavior.  (Yes, I know that this forum is private domain).

Do some of our threads here get out of hand?  I think so.  But I also don't think that is the norm.  We also have the ability to ignore a thread that we don't want to read.

Does this forum provide the ability for any user to filter out another user's posts?   Some forums allow a person to strip out another user's comments.  That might be a way to appease.

[Windpower]

(did I miss something here, did my above comment get this thread locked ?)


This forum is a favorite because the users are inteligent and not afraid to voice opinions

There is a lot of good dicussion here

Censorship sucks !

I have left lots of forums because of mods abusing their power

I agree whole-heartedly with Glenn

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Ironranger.  If we have to sit and guess if we will offend someone with reasonable material then even I will stop participating in the forum.  This is the only group or club I have not quit because of whiners or intimidation by so called authority figures.  I see men as being created equal and not even BO or GWB are better than you or I.  

Yes - I am a bit of an authority figure as John has given me permission to volunteer to help make this forum possible by limiting spam, hate speech, personal attacks and removing members who break those rules.  I remove a few a week usually.  You do not notice because they are advertisers, porn posters or spammers.  

I do not feel it is fair for me to abuse that power by removing or blocking things that I just plain don't care for or I disagree with.  I feel it is also my right and goal to protect the rights of legitimate members who do not cross the guidelines set by John, even if I do not like or agree with what they are saying.

I feel you have the right to talk about things that bother you or your family and that others should watch for or learn from.  

I feel I have the right to not read it.  I see no need for a disclaimer that doesn't pass John's limit on TRUE HATE speech.  If there must be line I will settle for it being there.  I could see an exception if something was way out of line and unreasonable but, our forum does not draw members who post such material for the most part.

Information in case anyone does not know:  Members should remember that John's limits on the postings in the disclaimer at the top of the forum are to help prevent lawsuits and since a members postings are copyrighted as they are posted, they could be subject to be included in those lawsuits also.  That should limit members  idea of what is appropriate.  

Nobody is unable to be located.  IP addresses are recorded and your internet service provider has record of when you were on .  Even if you use a screen name, NSA has access to your identity.

That said, I still don't see that we have slipped far enough into a dictatorship that we are not able to discuss problems with the system.

Frank, you and I have not had a good difference of opinion in a while.  Even when we did, I did not trample on your right to have that difference of opinion with me by deleting, blocking or removing your postings.

I felt that would be an abuse of my administrator's power.  I feel that you needed to get out your view on a point also so that others could consider your views.  You are free to say things I don't like.  I am not terminally and irrecoverably harmed.  It has been a pleasure differing in opinion with you in the past.  

I feel it is important to state our views and read others views without getting butt hurt over them (sorry - I couldn't think of a better term for that).  I am saying we should be able to make our point and read others views without harboring any animosity or ill will toward each other.

There is no way that I know of to block a members postings on an individual basis.  I think we are limited to not reading that members postings or not reading a topic if it offends us personally.  At least member names are prominently placed on each posting if we want to ignore them.

Also remember that if a member says something they feel is inappropriate when they review their posting, then they are able to delete or edit their own posting.  I delete myself nearly every day.  

I want to see our members participate in open free discussion without worrying about every little detail.  No whining.  

(did I miss something here, did my above comment get this thread locked ?)


This forum is a favorite because the users are inteligent and not afraid to voice opinions

There is a lot of good dicussion here

Censorship sucks !

I have left lots of forums because of mods abusing their power

I agree whole-heartedly with Glenn

Windpower, I see you view it the same as I do.  If it gets to be a whiny, abusive, picky little useless forum, then you and I will likely both be leaving.

I don't think it was your comment, but actually a misinterpretation of John's guidelines and member's desires that got it locked.  I will not participate in a whiny, abusive, power trip strangled group.  I even limit my own abuse of power.  I am not exempt from that.

To all, I enjoy our discussions and difference of opinions here and hope we can find middle ground where we can all continue to enjoy it here.  I will fight to keep it the way it has been and remain within John's guidelines, however I will not let those guidelines be stretched to more than they are at the minimum or I just will not participate.

It is my view that moderator abuse of the forum will kill it by attrition, just as you have stated, Windpower.

I feel our group is in the top 5% of the total population as far as sense and intelligence regarding views is concerned.  We need to act that way and educate each other.  We need to act like grown up's (except me).  We can handle it.

[IronRanger]

As as the "cop-bashing", I don't understand what's wrong with exposing bad cops.  Too many walk-away without charges being pressed or "paid admin leave".

I am deeply confounded by those people who protect authority even when they commit disgusting criminal acts. 

Perhaps someone who has this viewpoint can explain it to me?    

[MountainDon]

Exposing bad cops is fine, good and necessary. It would mean more to me, be more effective, to see the exposé on a local level as I believe there's little I can do about something that occurs at a small town police force several states away.   

[glenn kangiser]

I actually expressed my disgust at this type of behavior on the title article directly to the police department in Oklahoma.  I requested that he be fired before I travel in their state.  You might be surprised at what the internet can do.

I mentioned our health official who fought the State for us regarding the septic law.  It was passed yet we were able to get it rewritten and back to the drawing board by dissent and email by the citizens including outsiders.  This was plainly a grab for money at around $40000.00 a pop by vested interests and corrupt state officials trying to make thier investments pay off.

Knowledge is power.

[IronRanger]

Exposing bad cops is fine, good and necessary. It would mean more to me, be more effective, to see the exposé on a local level as I believe there's little I can do about something that occurs at a small town police force several states away.  Huh?

Raising the level of awareness is necessary too;  Distancing ourselves from it isn't patriotic either-  I care what happens in Washington, D.C.- it all has a trickle-down effect.  Do I worry about every detail and every event around me?  Absolutely not, but this particular issue gnaws at me.  

[John Raabe]

Just in case anyone cares, I am in general agreement on the evolution of the discussion here. I think we are doing a pretty good job of keeping ourselves free while barking down (when needed) the abuses.

I am not worried we are showing up on any Homeland Security screens and hope that any postings that might foster terrorism or a Timothy McVeigh type call to destructive action will be reported quickly and blocked by the watchful eyes of our volunteer moderators. Those guys we don't want on board and, because this is a free and open forum, they won't join up wearing signs. We will have to get to know them by their posts.

The fact is not every member who signs up to this forum will be worthy of membership. Most will be helpful and post interesting topics. We may at times have to be cops ourselves.

One comment on the video Iron Ranger linked to... that video exists only because cop cars are now fitted with video cams and recorders that can't be tampered with. This is to record and document arrests and catch abuses of police powers as well. There will always be "bad cop" videos that are leaked... the "good cop" videos go directly to Fox's "Cops" show.

When we need to worry is when the police departments start taking out the cameras! That's when the way will be clear for the police state fears to really get rolling. Until then the videos will help keep the cops clean and protect the public from a climate of abuse (but not all individual abuses, of course).

[glenn kangiser]

Of course we care, John.  It is a special event for us when you take time from your busy schedule to check in on us and make sure we are playing nicely.

You of course are the ultimate "Decider" for the major issues of the forum you let us play in so freely, so we always strive to earn your blessing.

Seriously now, Thanks for being fair about this and I think you will be well rewarded with an ever expanding forum with great members for the most part.  

Allowing topics of interest to continue in the off topics relatively free of censorship will assure a steady supply of members who will also be perusing the other boards to help members in need.  

During the last year of work, I was so busy that if it were not for the off topics, I would have had little reason to show up here, as Sassy can tell you.... I did very little on the place.

We have many members who alert us when things have to be looked at so while a problem may creep up for a short time, I don't think it will remain there for long.  

[NM_Shooter]

I don't think that there is any doubt that the media is even lower.

I'm trying to figure out what this story is all about.  It appears that a Heene family neighbor was pissed that the media was blocking the road.  He got out of his truck to yell at a reporter, and apparently got jumped on from behind by someone else... a news related person maybe?

Note that he gets thrown on his head, and that the news folks only really get excited when it appears that one of their own is about to get his butt kicked. 

I do hope the bald guy is successful in his lawsuit.

http://www.knx1070.com/Fight-Erupts-Outside-Heene-Home/5474241

[MountainDon]

To borrow a phrase from IronRanger..  

...issue gnaws at me.

I spent the past three days and nights in the mountains, felling trees, bucking them into manageable sizes, rolling them down the hill, etc. My mind was rolling around thoughts from this topic, mainly thoughts about how wrong I was, how stupidly I acted. It gnawed.

IronRanger I apologize for allowing a personal feeling get in the way of my better side and totally obscuring my moderator duties. I should not have locked this thread. (Note to the readers, I never deleted so much as a period, I did lock the topic. That was wrong.)

A also apologize to John for stirring up a hornet's nest when no stirring was required or necessary. I was over zealous in my interpretation of "I would like us to focus here more on helping each other (which we do a very good job of) and less on trying to vent frustrations on real or imagined enemies."

I do not expect anyone to give me kudos for owning up to my lapse in judgment any more than I expect any continuing rehashing of my error. What's done is done, and I'm sorry. Let's all move onward.

[IronRanger]

IronRanger I apologize for allowing a personal feeling get in the way of my better side and totally obscuring my moderator duties.

Thanks, MtnDon. 

Let's all move onward.

Agreed.  I was one step ahead of ya.   

[glenn kangiser]

No problem with me, Don. 

It did lead to a further refining, simplification and clarification of the boards mission as well as an aim toward more goodwill without limiting those who just need to get it off of their chest much, if any.

Sorry if I was overly colorful.  I was just in a writing mood.

[IronRanger]

There's nothing "alleged" about this video.  The guy's skippin' down the sidewalk and the cops start beating the s*** out of him.  They claimed he struck the officers and horses, then the horses caused his injuries.

__________________________________________


"Video Allegedly Shows Md. Police Beating Student"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAPwyodTkYA

[SardonicSmile]

 The only punishment the cop received is a 5 day suspension.
Call OK Commissioner of Public Safety Kevin Ward at 405-425-2001 and tell him to fire Trooper Martin.

[SardonicSmile]

Here's the police report.  I especially like "I'll speak with yo mama outside".  Upon that comment alone, I think the cop showed incredible constraint. 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

If you are going to be a howling hypocrite and do your best to piss off a cop, don't be surprised if you get to go for a ride.

Here's a decent write up on the subject.  In the picture, note the stoic black cop.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/jul/22/henry-louis-gates-michael-white

What makes you think cops have the right to "give us a ride" because we make them angry?

[NM_Shooter]

You're right.  Just pissing off a cop is not reason enough.

Acting in an unstable fashion, refusing to show identification when a neighbor calls in a breaking and entering concern, that is reason enough. 

Acting like an ass just didn't help him out any. 

[muldoon]

to be honest, I dont really like cops.  I have seen more bad cops than good cops.  The few people I have known since high school that went into law enforecement; 1 went on to leave it for the crruption and another fell right in line.  I do not have alot of respect for them overall.

But, everyone needs to understand something about cops.  They spend their entire day dealing with the bottom 10% of the populace.  They routinely deal with the crack addicts, the wife and kid beaters, the drunks, the dealers and theives whatever.  What is an appropriate response when dealing with those people are generally not the most appropriate response when dealing with the other 90% of the population.  But I do understand stress.  I do understand a breach of trust.  I do understand when a cop is confronted by an angry agressor and the cop makes the situation out to be worse than it is.  I am not saying it's right.  I am not saying its the proper way to respond, I am only saying I understand why some would confuse a non-violent situation with a violent situation if they had been exposed to enough of it.  (veterans will understand this as well for all the wrong reasons). 

Anyway, even if your in "the right", dont confront the police.  save it for the judge.  You wont win against the gun and the badge. 

[NM_Shooter]

I think that the camera surveillance of both suspects and the police response is a very, very good thing.  You don't have to watch too many episodes of "COPS" to see that arrests are often accompanied by what appears to be overly aggressive behavior on the part of the law enforcement officials. 

The police make me nervous because of the human waste they have to deal with on a regular basis.  This clearly affects their response to everyone; I suspect that no cop ever believes any story unless it is a confession. 

I think the best approach to dealing with the police is to speak little and be nice.  At best, a bad attitude is going to delay you due to a field interrogation.  If you act hostile or unstable, you may be arrested and held until you are deemed to be sober or otherwise determined to be no threat.

Yeah... I think video is a good thing 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1qdWExQGiA

[IronRanger]

I've been slacking on this thread, so here's a heartwarming story.  It brings new meaning to "stand by your man":

Police Sergeant Doubled as Serial Rapist

Wife Stands by Illinois Policeman Jeff Pelo, Sentenced to More Than 400 Years in Prison

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6467266&page=1