the mess in Eldorado, TX

[ScottA]

Well the feds learned their lesson...now they just set fire to the building and kill everyone. That way they can make up any story they like to cover the mass murder. Don't even get me started on Waco. I knew America was a changed land when I saw that.

[NM_Shooter]

I'm still a bit on the fence on this, but leaning towards CPS.  Unfortunately, there is smoking gun proof that child abuse was happening here, and no one was reporting it.  Multiple underage pregnancies from "husbands" that were 3 to 4 times the age of the (child) "wife".

These pregnancies and subsequent births to underage child parents were not hidden.  Parents of these poor pregnant kids and other adults knew about it.  I think the lesser of two evils was to go in, get the kids into safe care immediately, and then figure out details. 

The part that I am uncomfortable about is the evaluative stage that they are in now.  The wheels of this particular organization turn very slowly.  I also think that they will tend to be over-critical. 

But I do believe that there are very few, possibly zero innocent adults there.  They all knew about it, and either promoted it actively or passively (by their silence). 

We have never lived in a society where you have to be proven guilty to be arrested.  I can't imagine how something like that would work.

I feel really, really bad for the kids.  Not at all for the adult moms who let this happen. Even less for the men. 

What a mess.

[benevolance]

Seems to me that they provoke you to move so they have a target...And if you do not die quickly then they get a bulldozer or set you on fire..

Sort of like the old westerns... come out or we burn you out...

Sad to think that someone not hurting anyone specifically should have to leave their land or that the government can enter their land without permission...

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Well, yesterday I watched a video of some of the moms being interviewed by Katie Couric, and I have to say that they were so spacey that it did make me sympathize more with CPS than before.  It was like they were pre-programmed with X number of answers to give her, and they didn't necessarily correlate to the question asked.  The one question that they never gave a remotely satisfactory answer to was when Couric asked them about young girls being forced into marriage... it reminded me of the US POW in Viet Nam who was sending Morse code messages with his eyes about torture, yet saying that they were OK.  The women kept saying over and over, "Everyone gets to choose" but the answer wasn't the same in their eyes, if you know what I mean.  Still, I think that the whole thing must be absolutely terrifying to the kids, and I wish they'd left the kids with their moms at least until they had a better idea of what they were going to do with all of them.  Anyway, I think the whole fiasco is a mess.

[MountainDon]

I believe everyone can agree the situation is a mess. I also believe that by now everyone should be able to see that that FLDS compound was not and is not a place to raise children. It's clear that there were many young girls pregnant and giving birth and that was no cause for alarm to any of the adults. Rather it was condoned by the adults, the men, the loving mothers. Add the current situation to the cults track record and I don't see that there was any alternative course of action.

I do feel sorry for the kids. However, I would feel even more sorry to know that there were still arranged "marriages" between mature men and children going on.

[StinkerBell]

 What was reported at the onset is a lie and now it has become an abuse of the legal system, imo.

I am not sure how DNA testing is really going to help. From my understanding their "Family Tree" is more of a "Family Wreath". I think that is going to be the loophole to this whole debacle.

It will either clear this sect, by clearing you will not see a wreath but a tree or it will confirm for some not only is she your mom but she is your sister and second cousin.

[MountainDon]

I don't know one way or another if the initial call was real or falsified.

But if there was any suspicion of wrong doing with any of the children in the FLDS, PARTICULARLY sexual abuse, which is what it is when older adult males have sex with children, are we supposed to sit around until there is something officially reported? None of the adults in the FLDS were/are likely to make any complaint. They believe they have done no wrong!!

At the same time, NO, I don't approve of police state gestapo tactics.

What to do??? 

[benevolance]

legally there has to be a complaint filed by someone inside I think...

A rumor or speculation from someone outside is not enough to get a warrant... to smash their way onto land uninvited and to search and seize...

I do not agree with 13 and 14 year olds getting married... but there was a time not so long ago even in this country when it was quite commonplace for girls under 16 to get married and pregnant without parents permission

heck some states kids can get married when they are under the age of 16 with permission...

The men being 10 years older bothers me.... but does any of us think that the huge majority of teen agers 13 and 14 out there are not having sex? And how many young girls in america get pregnant each year that are under the age of 16 and not in a cult or commune?

We have little right to judge or be hippocritical when many of the things we are ostracisizing them for run rampant everyday outside in society

[ScottA]

So far all I've seen is hearsay, no real proof of any kind has been offered. Someone who they can't find now suposedly made a call to an abuse shelter and thats cause to take 437 kids from their parents? benevolance has a point. Underage pregnancy is quite common. That doesn't make it right but it's nothing thats exclusive to this group. The part I have a real issue with would be rape or forced marrige. If the person gives consent it's really nobodys business except the families.

[benevolance]

yes it is very disturbing that the so called person that complained about abuse suddenly has vanished...and so they have  seized the kids arrested the parents and disturbed their way of life without any inkling of proof... nothing concrete that would stand up in court... nothing to warrant a warrant... no pun intended there...

[mvk]

I thought that I saw a picture of someone who made that call and it wasn't a 16 year old at the compound. I thought that the calls where traced, that there were 2 one about the place in Texas and one about Warren Jeff's compound. I thought that maybe it was Denver they were traced to. But maybe that was a hoax to because I haven't seen anything else and you would thing it would be all over. I'm really trying not to follow this, a little to crazy for me. but sad and scary.

FWIW though:

I tend to agree with Don in general about the whole situation.

I think like Scott says that each person should have a separate day in court.  At least I hope you still have that right.

I agree with Homegrown that the mothers looked like they were out of it. I've seen my share of people under the influence of other people ideologies etc and the all look act the same to me.

I think with Randy Weaver they were trying to set him up as an informant.

Mike

[benevolance]

i would agree that they were targetting randy weaver because they thought they could use him as an informant... And when he refused they tried to persecute him... I do not think they ever wanted him outright because he was living pretty small hurting nobody on his own land....But they thought he might know some anti government movement or whatever..

Weavers biggest crime is that he told the feds to go f *bomb* themselves

[MountainDon]

The Weaver issue is another topic altogether in my opinion. He was plain stupid in falling into the trap of selling an illegal weapon. Of that there's no doubt, no argument. People who want to stay out of the clutches of the government or legal system shouldn't sell illegal guns. Period. As I said before that does NOT mean that anything that followed was necessary or good.

I don't believe anyone ever suspected Weaver of abusing children. On the other hand there is historical evidence that followers of the FLDS cult have done just that. So far, we the viewing public, have not been presented with proofs in the TX case. We'll have to wait and see.

While we're waiting some might find it instructive to do a little reading about the FLDS.

The HOPE Organization is a non-profit group dedicated to assisting survivors of abuse within polygamous relationships on their journey to personal freedom.
http://www.childbrides.org/
http://www.childbrides.org/taxes_Pres_bleed_beast.html

A book and a documentary. (trailer available for free viewing)
http://bankingonheaven.com/

"Spiritual Wife" or Single Mother? article/review
The film Banking On Heaven explores polygamy and religion in Colorado City
http://www.dominionpaper.ca/arts/2005/10/27/spiritual_.html

It's not just girls who are abused, boys are too, but not in the same ways as girls. "Lost Boys"
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/polygamy/lostboys.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger
http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html

From Anderson Cooper, CNN
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0612/31/acd.07.html

[NM_Shooter]

(Sorry if this posts twice... I must have hit the wrong button.)

No... legally there does not have to be a complaint in the case of a felony.  An adult having sex with a child is a felony.  It does not matter if her mom approved and gave her away.  That makes her mom a felon too.  Felons get prosecuted, with or without complaints.

I am a little shocked at how accepting some are with regards to child abuse.

Historical events do not set precedence for ethical behavior.  Slavery is an example. 

Underage pregnancy is common.  If it is caused by an adult, and proven, the adult is prosecuted.  This is not the same thing as two teenagers fooling around.  Remember, we are talking about children in their young teens being pregnant... there are huge differences emotionally and physically between an 18 year old and a 13 year old.

I have no issues with the man being 10 years older as long as the woman is of legal consensual age.

Is it fully understood that children are not legally able to consent to sex with an adult? Never!  And that even an adult soliciting sexual contact with a minor is a felony?  Ever watch those news show chatroom stings?

In this instance, kicking in the door and getting the kids away from what was clearly an unhealthy and abusive environment looks like the lesser of evils.  Trying to negotiate in a situation like this would have resulted in them locking down the compound and FLDS assuming a defensive stance.  It didn't work out in Waco and it would not have worked here. 

Personally, I don't give a crap what anybody does on their own property, under two simple conditions:

1)  Your emissions completely stay on your property and don't affect me or my neighborhood:  sound, kids, pets, smell, fluids, projectiles, friends, garbage, whatever. 
2)  Don't hurt innocents : kids, animals, handicapped, elderly

And you know what?  If you follow these simple rules, the authorities usually don't give a crap either.  (Except for the IRS.)

BTW... on a slightly different angle, my cop neighbor has sometimes worked with the state in setting up chatroom stings.  He says that it is frightening how quickly predators will latch onto someone that they think is a vulnerable kid.  They literally don't have enough officers to work these cases.

[MountainDon]

... need an applauding smiley   

[tanya]

The thing that bothers me about this whole FLDS thing is that not a single arrest has been made, not a single charge has been filed but every single child has been removed from their home.  If the CPS/LE folks have enough evidence to remove over 400 children then certainly there should be at least one little bity charge on someone?   Just one?  more would be better but this has been going on for some time now and the only ones I see suffering are the children.   If these were the judges children what would be happening?  Maybe thier tax paid for attorneys would be bringing some actions?  As far as abuse allegations go the LE and CPS have been quite slow to act on this matter.  Rolling Stone did quite an article when Warren Jeffs was on the run, describing this cult and their practices.  LOTS of red flags/suspicious activity, certainly enough for an investigation, for any LE or CPS agency.    I don't agree with moving kids out of thier own homes just based on allegations though, evidence and facts are necessary and if they have any evidence whatsoever then swift sure punishemnt (charges/arrests) is in order.  After all these kids are now sitting in state care.  If they are expecting help and protection from abuse and the perpetrators are still walking free, then what motivation do they have for being forthcoming with additional information?   

[ScottA]

Somehow I get the feeling there is more to this story than we are being told by the media. This group has been known about for a long time and they (the state) just now decide to do something. Someone wanted them out of this town for some reason. Maybe they where worried how these people might effect elections maybe they wanted their land. Somethings fishy with the timing of this and the fact no one has been arrested.

[StinkerBell]

(Sorry if this posts twice... I must have hit the wrong button.)


I am a little shocked at how accepting some are with regards to child abuse.

I said in an earlier post on this thread this is a big old can of worms. But I am willing to have a good conversation with this group because I think overall we are adults and can handle a good discussion.

I quoted just this sentence, seeing you had it standing alone.

I have yet to see where someone has been charged with Child Abuse.
The one thing about this country is they law. they (government officials) have to have evidence and make a charge. The burden is upon the state
(the fifth and fourteenth amendment rights to life, liberty, and property not taken away without due process of the law).

It is of my opinion that the government through CPS has crossed the line. They have this power that somehow is void of meeting any burden of law. They can take your children then figure out IF you have done something wrong. There are few more laws that have nothing to do with this case, but are similar in nature, no due process, hopefully we can discuss later.

What I am going to say is now going to sound real harsh. Do not mean it to be blunt but I am not sure how to gently say what I want to say. I am not a great communicator. So be nice and try to understand my point....please.

No law or system in the world is going to be perfect. People will get hurt. That is a reality. But IMO our rights in this country are eroding at an alarming rate. So looking at the big picture, are we willing to allow the government to take more of our rights away because their might be some child abuse? We need to really think about this. This is how the Nazi's got started in the early 30's. And look what happened there.

[benevolance]

it is always a real problem when there is hidden agendas coupled with our devout law enforcement  and the system of justice.

[NM_Shooter]

I promised myself that i was done with this thread.  Here I am

Sorry, but I just don't understand your thinking.  I really have a disconnect with your logic.  No worries about offending me... I like to debate and don't take it personally   

In any case involving hundreds of people, and possibly dozens or hundreds of offenses with convoluted involvement further confusing things, it will usually be a while before any charges are filed.  We should be grateful that this is the case.  Bringing charges to bear is very serious and costly for everyone.  Some charges may happen very quickly if they think that there is need to apply additional restraint. 

Let's say that you are fighting a forest fire.  You see the fire and know that it exists.  You also know that it was arson.  Are you going to determine the origin of the fire, collect complete evidence, locate the perpetrator, arrest them, try them, and determine guilt/innocence before taking any steps to extinguish the flames?

This is very similar.  Get the children in a safe environment first.  I'm all for supervised visits from parents.  (Siblings are being kept together.) 

Your quote:  " take more of our rights away because their might be some child abuse?"

Do you understand that there is absolute evidence that child abuse was occurring at this compound?  And that no adult was reporting it?

What rights of ours (you and me) are being taken away by CPS protecting abused children in Texas?  Please be specific and logical.... help me understand your position. 

Hatred of CPS or conspiracy theory paranoia does not justify defense of abusive parents.   I am sure that CPS has plenty of problems, and has overstepped in many instances.  But I betcha that they are much more routinely right than wrong.  If not, they would be swift-boated out of existence.

[StinkerBell]

What I understand is that no one from that compound called the complaint in. That a person from a different state with some sorta personality disordered called 911 to make a false statement. That is my current understanding.

As for time needed to sort out things. Due process is a process that allows only a certain amount of time. The forest fire analogy is a strawman, imo or at least comparing apples to oranges.

Here is my problem with CPS, let me say I believe they have an incredibly hard job to do. Outside of physical abuse I do honestly believe that Child Abuse is extremely subjective. I have worked in an ER for about 10 years and have seen the over reach in some areas and at the same time seen where nothing was done.  I have had a ER Dr tell me to my face that Home School children are in general children that are abused and the parents do not want to school to find out. This is what he has been taught from education <insert roll eyes emote here>.

Where is the absolute evidence? I would love to read something that is more then speculation.



What I also know is that this topic is a very emotional topic. I TRY to step aside the emotional aspect of it.

As for our rights. It is the overall erosion. You want time to figure out (the forest fire example) guilt/innocence, our laws have time restrictions. Evidence has to be proved at a preliminary hearing and charges made.  The burden is upon the state to met this. From what I read, this burden was not met, but the judge decided to keep the children just in case. Due Process is not being done here.

As for CPS being more right then wrong and being swift boated out? that will never happen imo. Even if they are wrong most the time they are like the IRS n this country.

[ScottA]

Lets get real here. We are talking about hundreds of people. I can not belive for one second that every one of those kids was in danger. A few may have been but not all. A better course of action would have been for the state to meet with those people and explain their concerns and insist that untill they had a chance to complete a full investigation that CPS would need to visit and keep tabs on the goings on within the community in order to be sure the kids where safe. Then they could have taken individual action if and when they had evidence that someone had commited abuse. How many kids would have to be taken away nation wide if they took everyone who might be abused? Who will decide who is likely to commit abuse and who is not? Sounds alot like the "Minority Report". I'm not ready to live in that world. Are you?

[NM_Shooter]

Where is the absolute evidence? I would love to read something that is more then speculation.

Read the last paragraph:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html?iref=newssearch


From a Fox report:
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Apr19/0,4670,TroubleonthePrairie,00.html

"According to other affidavits, investigators saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and took statements from others who told of entering into polygamous marriages in their early teens. "

Scott... prove to me that they don't have evidence, and I will acquiesce.  See the above links otherwise. 

[benevolance]

shooter...

Perhaps you should talk to glenn about the reliability of fox news...

Please tell me that you are not reading their drivel

[NM_Shooter]

That's why I have a CNN reference too.