Iran War Already Begun?

[Sassy]

CNN Video - War With Iran Has Begun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4nqrNbjfhw&mode=related&search

[glenn-k]

What do these evil Iranians look like anyway?

http://www.iranian.com/Clips/2007/February/iran.html

[benevolance]

Well you know American planes bombed Iraq a year before the war started...They took out all aircraft artillery.. all radar stations...They said it was because of air zone violations and that they were provoked...But we can see that was a pre-cursor to a war that was immanent...A war bush and company wanted needed and were going to wage no matter what.

You can see some of the same patterns with Iran the buildup of air craft carriers...The vague intelligence reports stating that Iran is arming terrorists...Reports of american forces already in Iran scouting it out doing recon

In many ways looks like war might be immanent with Iran also

[glenn-k]

They already have it planned and want it -- they are just trying to figure out the right combination of lies to get the American people to go for it.  Along with trying to get enough cannon fodder for the two wars already in progress.  Politicians familes don't do war well and the rest of John Q Publics familys are already pretty well shot up and butchered -- some have gone on extended stays 3 or more times and even the wounded are being sent back to  battle I read.  We must secure the oil and presence in the middle east at all costs (as long as it doesn't get up close and personal for the polly's).

[benevolance]

The only saving grace for war with Iran is that there is an election coming up...The american public does not want or need another war...We have debt and economic hardships from the bills from Iraq and afghanistan...

If Bush goes into Iran and Bungles that up like Iraq is being Bungled...Republicans get thrown out of the white house and the Democrats will control all three levels of government....

Bush would absolutely love to get into Iran...But France, Germany, Russia, England will not support it....And despite the anti french protests when France refused to go to iraq....The world suddenly is not willing to follow america wherever it wants to go without sufficient reason...

So war with Iran would be met with resistance from much of the world....Russia is a key ally and trading partner with Iran...No UN resolution will ever get passed for a legal invasion...

Which is why we have these vague reports of Iran weapons in Iraq...And all the commotion over Iraq nuclear technology...

I thought it very interesting when the Iranian President said that he would shut down all Nuke facilities and destroy everything if the USA would do the same....

Americans think that is ridiculous...And to think the only country to ever use the nuke to kill human beings is the USA....It is okay for us to have and use Nukes...But bad for anyone else to have them...

Makes us hippocrits... America currently is upgrading all the nukes...Making them more powerful...Smaller lighter with more range and accuracy... The potency for destruction will be increased exponentially....Yet this is okay

It is funny how the language changes to support an arguement...with Saddam they needed to restore democracy after there were no WMD and no Links to 9-11...There is a democracy in Iran.....They have a government that involves the church but their leader is elected... So there is no evil Dictator to supplant...

Iran is being targeted because they are close to being self sufficient in terms of producing parts and building world class fighter jets...

For years Iran has bought whatever parts they could scrounge from American planes and copied the technology...They have designed several jets based on older american models...They upgraded the planes with the best radar in the world used russian engines to make them faster and then built them...Learning how to get the planes into production and to make them reliable....

But these jets were not groundbreaking...They were vast improvements on older platforms and would perform admirably against many jets around the world....

What Iran has gone onto now is developing their own advanced platforms...And they have started to build fighter jets of their own...They have perfected many areas and with help of the Soviets they possess the abilty to build every component needed to mass produce world class fighter jets...

This cannot be allowed....

For the last 50 years Israel has been able to destroy the Palestinians with relative ease because there was no threat to their aerial superiority...And their planes were supplied by the USA...France and Britian also supplied planes in the past in exchange for guaranteed control over the suez canal in Egypt... It is not a coincidence that Isreal took the Sinai penninsula and took control of the Suez for the British and French...

If there is a legit world class air force in the middle east region America cannot just force their will on the people there.... Any conflict that breaks out today is won with ease because they go in with planes and bomb the living shi* out of everything...And send in the troops to shoot anything still alive.... Took 5 days to sweep across all of Iraq...It would not take much longer to sweep across Iran....

If there was a legit opposition to the US air strikes...total domination in Combat would not be easy...Meaning war would be something of a stalemate

Even with US allies they sell technology that is 25 years outdated to their friends...They are selling F-16 and F-18 's to their allies...These planes are at least 25 years old... No Stealth planes are being sold

When China a few weeks ago decided to test weapons to destroy satellites it pizzed off the Americans...To think a weapon existed that could level the playing field and take away what has been a massive advantage for Americans in Warfare for decades

Nevermind that China still does not spend what the USA spends on Weapons...when China develops an advanced weapon there is negative comments about it...How it is disturbing....

Going into Iran is not just about oil...It is about preventing someone from being capable of resisting in the future...That is the true meaning of pre-emptive strike...

It is why Israel targetted all roads, bridges, oil storage facilities...Schools, hospitals, powerplants..Water and sewage facilities...Gas tsations in Lebanon...

It will take decades to rebuild the infrastructure...Meaning decades of people unable to resist Israel....Meaning decades of economic dominance of Isreal over their neighbor...

This is becomming the meaning of Pre-Emptive..Strike before someone is strong enough to resist our will...

[Amanda_931]

My current "serious" book is something called War and Peace and War by Peter Turchin.  I think I bought it as a used book, on the grounds that it's about due in (quality) paper, and hardbacks aren't what they once were.

He's trying to make a science of war and peace and empires.  Ends up thinking that Hari Seldon was wrong (in Asimov's Foundation trilogy, some of you knew that!).  That the theory can certainly help one understand, but not predict, the rise and fall of empires.  Too much can add to the mix--one exceptional human, one giant hurricane, etc.

But one point he makes is that we flat out cannot understand how people can cooperate in, say, an oriental despotism.  And it made (some of) us really believe that the minute we appeared, the Iraqis would join us in a cooperative building of democracy.  Afghanistan too.

And no doubt, Iran.  

There's a bit in the forward about the degeneration of empires that sounds like us now--rich getting richer, poor getting poorer, and the rich/elite depending on the state to prop up their wealth--can you spell Haliburton?  

I'll be interested to see how he develops that idea though the book.

[Sassy]

Rageh inside Iran - excellent video on Iran http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4679426685869498072

[Homesick_Gypsy]

Received an email late Friday from a friend-of-a-friend, very reliable, that said certain American companies (one friend works for this American company) had been told to pack everything and get out as quickly as possible.  Also that the USS Nimitz (aircraft carrier) had been sent to Iran, that the hotels in Bahrain were almost full occupancy due to military personnel arriving, and that war correspondents were arriving in packs.  Not a word of any of this on the news.  Not a peep.  

[jonseyhay]

There is this. It may be what your friend is referring to.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/02/262/print/
And here.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=5247

[Amanda_931]

The Nimitz (and the group associated with it) leaving for the Persian Gulf has hit the news in the last day or so.  For the third time in four years.  Apparently it will replace the Eisenhower (group);

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6314514&nav=menu36_3

The fact that attacking Iran doesn't make any sense, with a new Cent-Com head, etc. (according to that article Jonsey linked to) might not make a lot of difference.

[glenn-k]

I read somewhere several weeks ago that the 6th or 7th was dubya's plan.

[Amanda_931]

Crude oil went down a bit today, I think I just read, but gas prices were still headed up as of last night ($2.67 for regular at the most expensive station around--and we don't use the fancy California--and about 6 other states--gas)

But I've heard the 6th or 7th too.

[Sassy]

Gas in our area is @ $3.39 for regular... and what gets me is they are still using MTBE.  I remember in the 90's taking care of a patient in ICU who was telling me about how bad MTBE is & that I should contact our representatives to prevent the additive to our gas supply - he had all kinds of research to back up his arguments.  I thought he was a "nut"   come to find out, he was right  :-/

here's another link to the hostage crisis in Iran... http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2414760.ece

[benevolance]

This is about the translators and embassadors taken previously...That were iranian....

First it was denied that the American even plucked these people up.... Then when the 15 british were taken they refused to do a prisoner exchange...

And miracously one of the Iranian language translators has been released and 5 more are being processed for release...

And suddenly Britian and Iran are having direct bi lateral talks so the sailors will not have to face charges in Iran so they can be released.

Bush said something last week that there could be no...Quid Pro Quo...Scary when Bush tries to quote Latin :-/

Yet the sailors are all but released the Iranians taken against their will are going to be released and there will be no conflict

Although Dubbya would love it... I think the fact that Republicans lost control of the house and Senate...And the fact that the Democrats have said no more money for the war effort ... they have said that there has to be a date when a troop pull out occurs... a sate set in concrete...

This has sent a message to Bush...he does not want to hear it and vows to veto anything the democrats do...He will not have the support from his own senators on extending the war...and I think that people around bush are starting to see this....

Of Course Ships like the Nimitz get sent to the Persian Gulf just hoping that the Iranians are foolish enough to let themselves get tangled up in something.... The American ships are equipped with planes and missiles galore and are armed to the teeth...even if it was a short lived attack by the Americans...It would be devastating for Iran...They likely have enough firepower on board to wipe out a good bit of Tehran........They would love an excuse to flex their muscles and devastate Iran

[peg_688]

#1: Of Course Ships like the Nimitz get sent to the Persian Gulf just hoping that the Iranians are foolish enough to let themselves get tangled up in something....

#2:  The American ships are equipped with planes and missiles galore and are armed to the teeth...

#3: It would be devastating for Iran...

 #4: They likely have enough firepower on board to wipe out a good bit of Tehran........

#5: They would love an excuse to flex their muscles and devastate Iran

#1: They are hoping their presents will lead to Iran releasing the British folks.

#2: You bet your arse they are  

#3: Yes it could be , should they elect to shoot at them , the ship's that is.

#4:  And then some.

#5: They do what they are told , and will if told to do so.

The sailors on board are just people , like you and I , hoping for a speedy , safe , non violent solution .

The people giving the orders may not have as altruistic thoughts.  

[glenn-k]

The people giving the orders may not have as altruistic thoughts.

There -- look at that -- we agree on that, PEG.

[benevolance]

Peg

I disagree that the Nimitz is there for the 15 sailors... They are going to be released and the Nimitz will not suddenly leave... Iran went bigger and badder than Britain.... The british were using a small speedy craft that is partially inflatable.

Iran got out the bigger boats and took the sailors by force....America could not be outdone...They could not have Iran show up with the biggest baddest boats in the gulf....NO....That would lessen their ability to threaten intimidate....So they sent the mother ship.....

Sending the ship was a message in itself...Telling Iran...If you decide to put boats in the Persian Gulf we will put bigger badder boats in the persian Gulf...

Basically they are trying to control the waters that are native to Iran.

The hostage situation will resolve itself now that the Iranians that were seized/Taken months ago are going to be released...

And this whole thing will be over...but the Nimitz is not going anywhere....

Not unless someone is dumb enough to tick off  Dubbya somewhere else in the world.

[benevolance]

Oh and Peg

You said that it would be devastating for Iran if they decided to Shoot at the Nimitz

Do you remember Vietnam? The policing action that was started because a US boat was fired upon... only after the war we learned it was in fact not fired upon and the policing action/war was a lie?

So remember...The USA does not need to be fired upon first... We all like to think that we are holier than all get out...Never wrong...We never start the fight... just finish it...

This is just not true...

In the American Mexican War....America prodded and antagonized the Mexicans trying to start any kind of squabble dispute...So they could declare war...

Once they did it was a land grab and mexican slaughter. The Difference between us and Hitler at that time was Hitler was not born yet....And we declared war before seizing all that land....So the rest of the world sort of accepted it as the happenings of war.... Hitler took eastern Europe without war....And the rest of the world freaked out.

America almost never gets fired upon first.... They did not get fired upon first in Iraq (either time).. Veitnam... in WW1 they entered the war after the lucitania was sunk...And it was hit by mistake....

So there is a huge misconception about america and war...

[glenn-k]

The rest of the world says we plan to attack by the end of this month.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/070404/43/6e5dl.html

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070404/63076298.html

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070330/62861432.html

[jonseyhay]

This on the news down here this morning.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/print/4017520a10.html

[glenn-k]

Interesting - the Iranians must not have an Abu Ghraib at their disposal-- I didn't hear of any wires hooked to the genitals etc.  Some cultures are not as civilized.

[peg_688]

Stein will be returning to home port , Nimtz sailed early to show the flag, rattle the sabor, carriers are made for one reason , to project the power of the President of the United State's , who evr that Pres. is at the time.

 It didn't sail that much early MTL , and now that it has sailed the next carrier in schedule is the ready up 72 hour carrier. do we have plans to attach , yes , many places , many plans . That what we do , USN , contigency planing , what if , should we ?? I do know IF we don't and the $hit hots the fan blame is layed for not being ready , when we / they stay ready everyone gets all spun up , bent outta shape about that as well. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

If I had my way we'd go back to pre WW1 isolationism, before Pres. Wilson sent Lusatanna out as a sitting duck to be torpedoed so we could enter the war , or when Roosvelt  set all those A/C out so Japan could bomb Pearl.

Veitnam the stupidist war on our part , blame Eke ,/ Kennedy?? etc .

The world is shrinking USA should butt out bring the troops all over the world home , close all the borders , and get ready to repell borders . Let the Europeans take can of Europe , Japan , NK , China , scramble for power , etc etc middle east as well.

   

[Sassy]

So you signing up to run fer President, PEG?  We need someone who thinks like that - that's why my vote's going for Ron Paul...  

[glenn-k]

That sounds more like the way it should be, PEG.

I see that you realize that we have many times in the past set the scene up to get the people to agree with government policy.

Things haven't changed. :-/

[peg_688]

So you signing up to run fer President, PEG?  We need someone who thinks like that - that's why my vote's going for Ron Paul...  

"If nominated I will not run; if elected I will not serve." A  quote from a pretty fair General / warrior.