Reloading?

[rick91351]

Anyway, modding the rifle is pretty much out of the question unless a peep sight would fit without additional screws etc....you know what I mean?  I just can't bear the thought of tapping into it!

I so agree with you.  You just can not touch that M14  -  I have sporterized several mausers.  The last one was several years ago for my daughter.  A 6.5X55 Swede.  Now I am hoping  that my grandson who just turned nine will take me hunting with that gun someday.  He will be hunting age here in Idaho in three short years.  That gun and action just seemed to be built to do stuff with.  Then there are some guns you just should never ever touch.  They are sort of holy ground, they are history and lineage.  And they are not all necessarily military weapons or firearms however. 

   

[Windpower]

I bought a 6.5 X 55 Swede at a gun show for $165 (IIRC)

After looking through the Brownells catalog I decided to customize it into a more modern custom rifle

I figured I could 'sporterize' it and get a good hunting rifle for a bargain price

The trigger and lock time was -- umm how to describe it  ---- slooow and creepy

I cut off a lot of extra metal from the back part of the firing pin assembly with a dremel tool to reduce the firing pin mass and put in a much stiffer spring to speed it up 

On the far left of this pic I cut the back about 3/8 inch of the bolt assembly off -- the part that sticks up



I fitted a low profile safety so I could put a scope on it --similar to this one



then I put in a Timney trigger to get a crisper break

I hand filed the trigger guard back to a much trimmer more modern look and reshaped floor plate to a nice flat beveled look

Then there was that hard to find expensive ammo  --

So I had it rebarreled into 7X57 by an old gun smith whose eyes lit up when I told him the calibre (he said it was his favorite )
He also drilled and tapped it for some Kimber scope mounts

The bluing when it came back was perfect, he took a lot of extra time to polish the complete rifle -- he said it was probably the last barrel job he would do -- he was very proud of how it turned out

I then put on a Mannlicher style walnut stock

It made a nice, fairly light rifle

By the time it was done I had a rifle that is comparable to a Remmington for accuracy and weight and I only had about 100 hours of work and lets see about costs (1990 prices)

Rebarrel an bluing              $260
Trigger, safety and spring  $160 
Scope and mounts             $320
Stock blank                        $220
original rifle                        $165

What a bargain for roughly $1100 bucks a pretty good rifle   

so much for bargain sporterized military rifles I guess                                         

[OlJarhead]

It's the Winchester that I won't mod   But the M14/M1A is also in the category I agree!  It's a sweet rifle to shoot as is!

NM -- load!  I actually really enjoy successfully loading up a bunch of rounds to a point I'm happy...as I'm sure the rest do too....there is something about it...of course it's also a challenge for me because I'm new to it but then I love the challenge and all of you have been a big help on the 30-30 stuff!

[rick91351]

I have a couple in the safe that are 'untouchable'.  My uncle bought a Remington Gamemaster 760 30-06 pump.  My wife now owns it and uses it.  First year of production, it never was tapped for a scope nor fitted for a recoil pad.  I have offered to buy her another 30-06.  She says like that one.  But then she learned to shoot as a 'kid' with black powder guns that were as tall as she was.

The other one is a M1 Garand.  But then I can not imagine what one could do with  "the greatest battle implement ever devised"  (General George S. Patton)

[MountainDon]

It's the Winchester that I won't mod

Lyman may have a rear aperture sight that is a bolt on / screw on, without drilling more holes. I think it was a 66... I used one on the Puma 454... had to drill and tap, but IIRC it was the one meant for an early 94

[NM_Shooter]

You'd have to really think about what you want to do with that rifle.

If you want to shoot it well, you could get some shooting glasses that help with aging eyes, or install a sight with a diopter.  But doing that would degraded the aesthetics of the gun I think. 

If it is just a fun gun to shoot, and you don't depend on it to bring home dinner, then I'd probably just leave it as it is.  Why mess with a good thing?   

[Whitlock]

It's the Winchester that I won't mod   But the M14/M1A is also in the category I agree!  It's a sweet rifle to shoot as is!

NM -- load!  I actually really enjoy successfully loading up a bunch of rounds to a point I'm happy...as I'm sure the rest do too....there is something about it...of course it's also a challenge for me because I'm new to it but then I love the challenge and all of you have been a big help on the 30-30 stuff!

Sometimes a dab of white paint on the blade will help.
So do you own a M14 or is it a M1A?
I have a friend that owns a M1A match grade and he has mounted a scope on it and boy does that puppy shoot.

The older our eyes get the longer they take to focus and the harder it is to focus on maltipal items.
Do you shoot with both eyes open?
If not and you start this will help. With both eyes open it takes strain off of your retina allowing clearer vison. It takes some getting use to but it is a big help for you eyes.
I trained my eyes by sticking tape over my glasses on the non shooting eye side and after about 2 or 3 hours my dominant eye took over and I no longer need the tape.

Hope this helps,W

[OlJarhead]

You'd have to really think about what you want to do with that rifle.

If you want to shoot it well, you could get some shooting glasses that help with aging eyes, or install a sight with a diopter.  But doing that would degraded the aesthetics of the gun I think. 

If it is just a fun gun to shoot, and you don't depend on it to bring home dinner, then I'd probably just leave it as it is.  Why mess with a good thing?   

Shooting only.  I have a model 92 in .454 for the brush and a 7mm for longer shots   among other options....

[OlJarhead]

Sometimes a dab of white paint on the blade will help.
So do you own a M14 or is it a M1A?
I have a friend that owns a M1A match grade and he has mounted a scope on it and boy does that puppy shoot.

The older our eyes get the longer they take to focus and the harder it is to focus on maltipal items.
Do you shoot with both eyes open?
If not and you start this will help. With both eyes open it takes strain off of your retina allowing clearer vison. It takes some getting use to but it is a big help for you eyes.
I trained my eyes by sticking tape over my glasses on the non shooting eye side and after about 2 or 3 hours my dominant eye took over and I no longer need the tape.

Hope this helps,W

Interesting on shooting with both eyes open.  I've read about doing it but never tried (clearly not an operator lol ).....

The M1A is for all practical intents and purposes an M14 with the only possible difference that I can find is that the sear mechanism is fixed and cannot be modified to fire anything other then semi-auto (so I've read anyway).  However the full auto option M14's were useless and the military abandoned that idea because no one outside the Hulk could actually make any use of one (ever tried firing 7.62x51 on full auto?  Even my M60 A3 was a bear!).  However I digress!

I have the M1A Scout Squad made by Springfield Arms and took to calling it an M14 whenever I got strange looks from those who have no idea what one of those is but have heard of the M14 -- though I fair amount don't even know what that is anymore it seems.

Love the rifle!

[Yonderosa]

Ever wanted to shoot a 30-30 300 yards?  400?  Yes it's possible with this long barreled version though I don't know I'd try to shoot deer out there since the cartridge doesn't carry enough punch past 200 yards (or so I'm told)...perhaps the new fusion rounds in this rifle would at 300 yards but I suspect that's pushing it and I digress....

I filmed a a good friend of mine and neighbor of yours OJ shooting long range with his 30-30 and then killing a whole pile of milk jugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E4abzmvio0

Heres another clip of him doing it at 500 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiQGPmo3hmM&feature=plcp&context=C3f339e7UDOEgsToPDskLwjoHu9Hm1T1PMPzTqLMmH

I'm not a big believer in "energy" as a measure of hunting lethality based on my own experience.  My preference is for big deep penetrating bullets that make two holes.  The 45-70 at black powder velocity will travel lengthwise through a 300 pound Black Bear and Lord knows how many more as I've never recovered a bullet - and as far as I know that bullet is still going...  Zips right through Elk too.  Critters go down quick and so far (knock on wood) no tracking has been required.  Can't say that about fast skinny bullets including the 7mm - sure it has impressive numbers on paper but I've found penetration and on game performance unreliable.  A deer can go a long ways and not leave much blood to follow even when his boiler room is a gooey mess.   

Your mileage may vary.

[NM_Shooter]

Hmmmmm.... Keith vs. Ackley?

I like a fast bullet that holds together... for Elk I have switched to a Barnes-X style projectile.  I've never given an animal a gooey boiler room and have them stay on their feet for more than 10 seconds, or awake for more than 20 seconds.  If you consider boiler room to be heart and lungs.  I would agree with the lack of blood without an exit wound.

I guess it depends what I am shooting and how close it is.

For the most part I lean towards Ackley and prefer a faster bullet.  Too important to exactly know the range for slow bullets.  Misjudging by 25 yards at 300 with a 45-70 is going to put the round off target.  I've yet to see a person who can accurately judge distance by eye at 300 yards every time (throw in declination for fun too).  Even very experienced shooters struggle with estimation.  Using a scope helps, but I don't want to think about it too much when I'm hunting and need to take a shot right now.  If you are hunting from a stand and exactly know your distances to fixed objects, then you have a better chance.

If I am in the path of a Cape Buffalo during rush hour, then I might prefer the biggest diameter bullet I can find, but also going as fast as possible.  Bigger is good for that, but I think fast and big is better. 

[Yonderosa]

I'm an "aim for the exit hole" kinda guy.  I want at least both lungs to be inline with that too, I guess that is why I end up passing on so many shots - I figure I'll take one shot in about a half dozen legal critters I see if it's a open area and maybe one in a dozen if its thick which is most of the time.  I don't long range hunt mainly because I like hunting with an iron sighted levergun or a bow and I have self imposed limitations. 

I started out a bolt guy and leaned toward the Weatherby philosophy - faster is better, "energy" dump ... the stuff I read in magazines my whole life.  After the better part of two decades of that with mixed results a feller showed up at camp with a 44 levergun as his primary - typically those kind of guns were considered "camp guns" or backups.  It didn't take long before he made me question my whole skinny fast bullet bias.  I was very impressed by the performance, its handiness, its lack of thunderous report...  It planted the seed and after sharing a hunt with a gentleman using a 45-70 Sharps (blackpowder loads) on his last Elk hunt and being thoroughly impressed by the performance  I was perty much converted.  My past experience with Elk generally involved a difficult track and recovery (seemingly always at the bottom of the hill in the thickest, steepest, nastiest terrain possible), the 45-70 dropped her in her shadow.  I also learned what "eating up to the hole" was all about and the field work was less messy. 

Now almost a decade later, I'm more cranky about who I hunt with (I'm convinced its easier to find a good wife than a good hunting partner) and how I hunt which means hunting  alone most of the time.  I'm perfectly fine with others who choose another path so long as they are well practiced and make ethical choices in their shots. 

[Whitlock]

I agree with NM_Shooter.

In the area that I hunt it is going to be a fast bullet that holds together.

I love my 7mm's and 6.5's

Your friend with the 30-30 is quite a shot, off hand, open sites, 500 yards !!!

I wonder how many milk jugs would of been shot though at 500 yards?

With the 45-70 do you have a lot of wasted and  blood shot meat?

It just seems like over kill to me but I have never shot anything but tagets with one.



Later,W

[Yonderosa]

very little meat damage with the 45-70 at the velocities I shoot it (<1500 fps).  For Deer I typically use 45 Colt 1894.  A 300 grain bullet jogging along at 1250 fps puts em down quick.  Works great on Black Bear too.  Another pard of mine took an Elk with his.  I wasn't there but he reported it as a DRT.

We typically catch 30-06 bullets in the 7th jug.

Here's some video of us shooting the 45-70 at long range.  Even at less than 1200 fps at the muzzle it still has some smack left down range (about 1:40 into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oas1ApY6qo

Here he is at 1,000 yards.  The target is 20" wide and 32" tall which was replaced by the dinger in the previous video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO6ihrcukcc&feature=plcp&context=C368967eUDOEgsToPDskIC4iyAy2ononet3LUiGad_

While mostly a waste of ammo its fun to shoot long range with our revolvers too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4eg8mnhjkM&feature=plcp&context=C31ab669UDOEgsToPDskIG8v0z_ecWhN7C4WbI-s-o

[OlJarhead]

I SO want to join you guys out there!!!

[peternap]

I think a lot of the big bullet, small bullet has to do with the area.
I love my fast steppers, actually, I love guns...period, but for Deer and Bear Hunting, I only use two. One is my Guide Gun in 45/70. A 300 yard shot in my neck of the woods is unheard of. 15 to 50 is more like it.

The exceptions are fields and power line easements. I use my 270 there where ranges can go to 300 yards.

Even the shotgun hunters aren't too handicapped here.

[OlJarhead]

Whoohoo!

I went out with a friend to test some new loads I made up.  Oregon Trail Lasercast 250gr RNFP's for my .45colt using CCI300's and 7.7grains of Unique.  I wanted to compare them to a Trailboss load I'd done and was very happy!

While the Trailboss loads were slower (designed to run around 750fps but clocked in at 700fps) I felt I could still compare the two in terms of consistency.   The Trailboss loads were a little spread out with most sitting around the 700fps range but some running hot and as high as 800fps or more.  Strange I thought.

The Unique loads mentioned above ran 845fps on average with a Standard Deviation of 25 (if my memory serves me right) which I think is ok for the .45colt case and a 250gr bullet.

I then went on to a new load I playing with for brush hunting as a sidearm defensive load (for charging game) and something I can use in my Puma92 for brush hunting.  I need a load that doesn't hurt to shoot but produces good penetration and force.  The 360 grain Lasercast WNFP gas checked bullet is my newest candidate

I went low with the powder at 18.4grains of Win296 which should produce something above 900fps and 650 ft-lbs plus out of my 5" Vaquero but while they shot great and felt fantastic we couldn't' get the darn chrono to catch them!  I moved forward and backward for the few rounds I had trying to find the sweet spot for the chrono but we couldn't get it to read them

But later inspecting the brass it was perfect!  No cracks or damage at all (and these are once previously loaded cases as is) and the feel, sound and impact suggest a good starting load

The recipe I have shows up to 20 grains of 296 with CCI350's which would push these out around 1300fps and produce something like 1300 lbs-ft of force  and I'm hoping to get a good chrono result soon so I can start working them up a little bit.

I think pushing much over 1000fps isn't really needed for my area and that puts the force at about 800+ lbs-ft at the muzzle which out to stop most big game in WA state -- if it don't then my bowie better be handy! lol

[OlJarhead]

I also shot some jacketed soft nose 300 grain Hornady's that I expect to run around 900fps but sadly the Chrono didn't seem to like them either.

Only thing I can guess is the muzzle blast was making it too hard to catch the bullet?  Might have to measure velocity at 20 feet or something like that in order to get away from the muzzle blast of these hot loads.

Incedentally, we didn't have an issue with a .223 running loads from 2400fps to 2600+fps from about 10 feet out and my 250 grain bullets at 8-10 feet seem to register fine though we did have to walk back a bit and then work forward to a point it read well.  Seems the Chrono is finicky with the bigger bullets for some reason.

[OlJarhead]

Did some reading and it sounds like the blast wave from the hotter loads could have been the issue with trying to read them.  Also bright sun without any shades built in.

Seems a common problem with .45 caliber bullets too -- which I find interesting.  Has something to do with the big slow moving bullet getting a 'glint' off bright ground or some such goofiness...who knows but I know that a hot loaded .45 colt is hard to chrono without doing SOMETHING to help the chronograph register the round.

[OlJarhead]

Worked up my new load that I'll be trying soon at 19.0 grains of win296, CCI350's and the 360 gr WNFP's made by Lasercast of Oregon (I went to the factory to pick them up -- ya drooled all over).

Figured these ought to run about 975 out the muzzle and produce 760 ft-lbs of force.  Then I'll do a batch at 19.5grains and 20 grains (for the rifle) which ought to go 1234 and produce 1216 ft-lbs

If these loads work out nicely (I think they will) I'll do up a set for the rifle (Puma Model 92 .454 Casull) at 1200fps and a set for the pistol at 1000ish...that way I'll have plenty of oomph out of the side arm if needed and can use them in either the rifle or the pistol but will have the hotter loads intended really for the rifle.

Have to admit that I always get excited when loading up new bullets -- even with old recipes.  Just something about making your own  

[Yonderosa]

45 Colt is just a great caliber.  139 years of history and good results. 

Are those heavy bullets printing high?

My New Vaquero and Blackhawk both shoot 300+ grain bullets high - about 4" High at 25 yards.  250-280ish work perfect with the sights on both guns.  Lighter bullets print low.  Out of the rifle, its all pretty close.

[peternap]

45 Colt is just a great caliber.  139 years of history and good results. 

++1

[OlJarhead]

45 Colt is just a great caliber.  139 years of history and good results. 

Are those heavy bullets printing high?

My New Vaquero and Blackhawk both shoot 300+ grain bullets high - about 4" High at 25 yards.  250-280ish work perfect with the sights on both guns.  Lighter bullets print low.  Out of the rifle, its all pretty close.

Haven't had a chance yet to print them -- might today or tomorrow.  Was just trying to get the chrono to give velocity.  Going to try two things this week:
1.  Put up a cellophane screen in front of the chrono to shoot through to help control the blast wave.
2.  Shoot from 12-15 feet for the same reason.

Seems shooting 8-10 feet out with no screen just messes with the chrono and I've read it's the blast wave from the round and short barrel that's causing the issue.

Loaded up some Win296 19 grain rounds and will be working up some 18.5/18/7/19/19.2/19.5/19.7 and 20 grain rounds to test out this week.

[OlJarhead]

You mentioned 'new vaquero'.....I thought those were too light to shoot anything but cowboy loads? 

I have the old vaquero (2000) which was also made in .44mag (with fluted cylinder) and can shoot pretty much anything I'm willing to throw at it but I'd read somewhere the new cowboy action vaquero's weren't designed for the heavy loads.

[Yonderosa]

The New Vaquero is rated in the same class as the S&W Mountain gun.  Stronger than a Colt or Clone but not up to "Ruger Only" loadings.  Brian Pearce has written a couple of excellent articles on the New Vaquero.  Here's one that came up with some of my lazy google-fu.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf

My go-to load is a 280 grain Keith style SWC (RCBS 45 270) over enough Unique to get it going 900 fps.  Accurate, economical to shoot, easy on brass, plenty of smack down range.