Reloading?

[OlJarhead]

OK guys and gals here's a question for you:

I've been reloading now for about 5 years (so I'm still a newbie at it) and am learning more every time I load a new set of cartridges and I hope to learn more today


This is a picture of a 150 gr Sierra JFN bullet I just reloaded for my 30-30.  I'm using 32 grains of H4895 (about middle of the road) and have trimmed the case lengths according to my Lyman reloaders manual (newest edition) to 2.028" and pressed to 2.054" with a crimp.

As you can see the crimp doesn't fully engage the cannelure which I believe is desirable when reloading with cannelured  bullets.  So here is the question:  Do I leave it at 2.054" as the manual calls for or do I press the bullets in a little deeper until the crimp is about 1/3rd of the way into the cannelure?

Now before we get into a discussion about chamber pressures and headspacing I'll add that I've done a fair amount of reading on the subject and while it does make a difference in chamber pressures when the bullet is further away from the lands or right into them the difference appears to be more significant (and important to pay attention to) in much higher powered rifles and it appears that most 30-30 reloaders don't feel that it's even that important to trim the cases as long as they aren't stretched past 2.039".

But what I'm looking for is real world shooters/reloaders who might have some guidance for me here.

I don't plan to hunt with this rifle (it's over 40 years old and a treasure) but I do like to shoot it from time to time and have a hankering to reload a little for that purpose.

Much thanks
Erik

[peternap]

Glad to see you still load for the 30-30. It's a fine old round in many ways.

The distance from the lands does impact chamber pressure but the 30-30 is a low pressure round to start with and your load is moderate, so that's not an issue.

The bullet jump in your case needs to be based on two things.

The first and of lesser importance, is accuracy. The jump is highly individual from rifle to rifle. I like to start at about 20/1000 and move forward until I hit the sweet spot.

The second factor and most important, is that you're using a tubular magazine that pushes on the bullet. If you don't have a good crimp and I always use the crimping groove both on cast and jacketed bullets with the 30-30, the bullet can easily be pushed deeper into the case.
That does alter accuracy and chamber pressure when it is extreme.

Since you mentioned headspace, that again doesn't matter here. Rimmed cases headspace on the rim so it doesn't matter what the shoulder or case mouth are doing. I have one 30-30 I've rechambered to an improved cartridge and shoot both fire formed improved cases and off the shelf factory stuff out of it.

[rick91351]

Since you mentioned headspace, that again doesn't matter here. Rimmed cases headspace on the rim so it doesn't matter what the shoulder or case mouth are doing. I have one 30-30 I've rechambered to an improved cartridge and shoot both fire formed improved cases and off the shelf factory stuff out of it.

Interesting by improved are you referring to a PO Ackley Improved are a more local wildcat?

[peternap]

Interesting by improved are you referring to a PO Ackley Improved are a more local wildcat?

It's my design Rick but very close to the Ackley.

[OlJarhead]

Thanks for the excellent response...so I take from it that I ought to seat these a little deeper so I can crimp into the groove?

I tested one last night and found something interesting:  chambering the round pressed the bullet back into the case and now measures 2.050" and the crimp which must not be tight enough is fully engaged in the groove now.

Thoughts?

Re: the 30-30. 

The 30-30 is my all time favorite caliber to shoot hands down.  I don't shoot it often anymore but I've had this rifle since I was 2 or 3 and grew up with it.  At one time I could hit a bullrush at 100 yards offhand with it!  Today I have a harder time seeing through the rear v-knotch site but that's ok as I'm sure I can still ring the gong at 250 yards with this trusty rifle.  It's not only beautiful but it's straight shooting.

Sure the 30-30 isn't the longest shooting round, nor the most powerful but who can argue that the iconic 30-30 isn't one of the best all round rifle cartridges ever developed?

[OlJarhead]

There is just something about shooting this old long barrel that makes me smile

Ever wanted to shoot a 30-30 300 yards?  400?  Yes it's possible with this long barreled version though I don't know I'd try to shoot deer out there since the cartridge doesn't carry enough punch past 200 yards (or so I'm told)...perhaps the new fusion rounds in this rifle would at 300 yards but I suspect that's pushing it and I digress....

Here she is   Beautiful huh?


That's my other favorite   Ruger Vaquero in .45 colt -- can't beat it!

[peternap]

I tested one last night and found something interesting:  chambering the round pressed the bullet back into the case and now measures 2.050" and the crimp which must not be tight enough is fully engaged in the groove now.

Thoughts?

That's what I was warning about. I've actually had the bullet disappear into the case.

The 30-30 has a long and delicate case neck and has to be belled to keep from crumpling it while seating the bullet.
It's simply not strong enough to give a taper crimp that will hold up against the stress of a tubular magazine and the sharp feed ramp in a lever action.

It needs a strong roll crimp in the cannelure to give consistent results.

[OlJarhead]

That's what I was warning about. I've actually had the bullet disappear into the case.

The 30-30 has a long and delicate case neck and has to be belled to keep from crumpling it while seating the bullet.
It's simply not strong enough to give a taper crimp that will hold up against the stress of a tubular magazine and the sharp feed ramp in a lever action.

It needs a strong roll crimp in the cannelure to give consistent results.

I was thinking that I needed to seat the die down further and crimp tighter into the groove and I doubt the .004" shorter round will make much of a difference...heck I think I can get it a little longer and maybe only lose .002" in the process...

I also noticed that the cases were pretty delicate and that even with a good chamfer I was occasionally getting an ever so slight bulge at the lip which I figured was the bullet messing with the case.  I'll have to find what I need to bell the cases (I'd read that they were like that by others but not having something to bell them with I went ahead and worked up some loads -- seems I was able to get most without damaging the case and the few that were still chambered.

[peternap]

Ever wanted to shoot a 30-30 300 yards?  400?  Yes it's possible with this long barreled version though I don't know I'd try to shoot deer out there since the cartridge doesn't carry enough punch past 200 yards (or so I'm told)...perhaps the new fusion rounds in this rifle would at 300 yards but I suspect that's pushing it and I digress....

100 yards for Deer size game.
It's a wonderful old round and was the first conversion from BP to smokless. It's taken every animal in North America but peole shouldn't try to push it and make it what it isn't.

[peternap]

I was thinking that I needed to seat the die down further and crimp tighter into the groove and I doubt the .004" shorter round will make much of a difference...heck I think I can get it a little longer and maybe only lose .002" in the process...

I also noticed that the cases were pretty delicate and that even with a good chamfer I was occasionally getting an ever so slight bulge at the lip which I figured was the bullet messing with the case.  I'll have to find what I need to bell the cases (I'd read that they were like that by others but not having something to bell them with I went ahead and worked up some loads -- seems I was able to get most without damaging the case and the few that were still chambered.

Depending on what die set you're using, you should be able to adjust the bell on the decapping die.

[OlJarhead]

100 yards for Deer size game.
It's a wonderful old round and was the first conversion from BP to smokless. It's taken every animal in North America but peole shouldn't try to push it and make it what it isn't.

http://www.whitetaildeer-management-and-hunting.com/ballistics-table.html

WOW!  Look at that table, it will illustrate your point very well. 

I love this round, I really do, but I've never hunted with it.  It's always been my plinking rifle and it's a sweet one for it and I know it's taken every big game animal in North America so I've been confident that it will do the job if needed....but my 7MM is the one I hunt deer with

[OlJarhead]

Depending on what die set you're using, you should be able to adjust the bell on the decapping die.

I'll check it out -- they are older RCBS dies.

[peternap]

My favorite cartridge for 100 yard Deer is an old one too. The 45/70 out of my Marlin Guide Gun.
When I need more range, it's my 270.

I've always shy ed away from the 7mm Mag because it's over bore capacity andreally needs a longer barrel than I like.
the 280 (7mm Express) is just about perfect though.

For a stopping gun, it's either my .730DDR or I'm playing with Tri Balls now in he DDR cases.

[OlJarhead]

The 45-70 is another I'd like to have but I have a .454 Casull Model 92 that I call my 'brush gun'

Of course I could also choose to use my .308 but then I'd have to get a magazine of only 5 rounds to use it and what's the fun in that!

[NM_Shooter]

This is a picture of a 150 gr Sierra JFN bullet I just reloaded for my 30-30.  I'm using 32 grains of H4895 (about middle of the road) and have trimmed the case lengths according to my Lyman reloaders manual (newest edition) to 2.028" and pressed to 2.054" with a crimp.

As you can see the crimp doesn't fully engage the cannelure which I believe is desirable when reloading with cannelured  bullets.  So here is the question:  Do I leave it at 2.054" as the manual calls for or do I press the bullets in a little deeper until the crimp is about 1/3rd of the way into the cannelure?

Any information used in the following post is sole responsibility of end user of the post.  The author refuses to acknowledge that anything below is even remotely correct  . 

I think that you are either measuring or reporting your dimensions incorrectly.  What do you mean by saying that you "pressing" it to 2.054"?  that would only be 0.015" (15 thousands) longer than the case.  Are you missing a "tens" number?  Maybe do you mean 2.540"?  What are you measuring?  Base of case to tip of projectile?  Remeasure the total cartridge length please.  

Trimming of the case is not that critical for safety reasons in the 30-30, as the headspacing is set off of the face of the rim (measured to datum on shoulder), and not off of the end of the cartridge mouth (like in 45 ACP).  But in almost all rifle rounds the end of the case does not cause interference fit in all but the most neglected cases.  I find that I rarely have to trim .223 rounds.  I prep the brass when I get it..... resize to SAAMI, deburr and uniform the primer hole and pocket, trim to length, and debur neck inside and out.  For palma or other ammo that I am being anal about, I will turn the neck thickness to uniformity as well.  Most stuff I don't.

You do need to be a little careful in setting up your dies, as you don't want to push the shoulder of the case back too far.  This will screw up accuracy, and worse, put slop in the chamber which can and does cause premature case failure.  I have case gauges for my flat walled rifle ammo.  I don't know if they make them for rimmed cases. 

2.039" is the maximum allowable length of the 30-30 case. 
From "Modern Reloading" by Richard Lee, 1997, Page 173 : "Case length is maximum allowed for a standard chamber.  Most rifle case may be trimmed .010 to .020 inch shorter."  They indicate that the case length on page 306 has a maximum length of 2.039". 

In terms of pressure, case length has little to do with safe pressure in your chamber... assuming that your headspace is set correctly, and mouth of cartridge is not contacting the lands (would be difficult to do).  The primary factor here is neck tension and length of neck to bullet contact, which is not a big component.  A little bit of pressure tends to swell that case out in a hurry.  As Peter mentioned, you just don't want the bullet touching the lands prior to firing, as that can spike the pressure.  As a side note, some guns are designed to shoot better that way.  The 30-30 is not one of them.

Assuming you are not touching the lands of your rifling with your projectile, the biggest geometry factor in pressure is the minimum OAL seating depth, as the bullet using up space in the volume of the case dramatically changes the pressure profile as the powder burns.  This is a really important number to pay attention to... the overall length of the cartridge, with the minimum OAL number being the key. 

Lee's book indicates that the Maximum overall length should be 2.550".   The truly critical length which is given in any reloading recipe is the Minimum overal length.  You do not want to seat your bullet deeper than this, as you risk over pressure.  For 150 grn bullet, depending on type, I see the minimum OAL as being in a range of 2.480" to 2.550" depending on projectile type.  Use the bullet manufacturer's min OAL spec. 

Do this... seat a bullet to the center of the cannelure, and measure.  If the overall length falls inbetween the reloading guide minimum, and the SAAMI maximum, then you are good to go.  If it is too short, then you have trimmed your cases too short. 

On my rifles where i can get to the breech of the barrel, I use a Stony Point gauge set to measure the chamber dimensions to the lands for each different projectile that I use in that gun.  I then use on ogive gauge when I am reloading to set my rounds back from the rifling to a dimension that I want.   I am never, ever even a bit close to violating the minimum overall length.  Note that this is a custom reload for this particular gun, and not one that I would swap to a different chamber.

What I would do is to fiddle with the case trimming to put the cannelure right at the crimp point, and put the OAL of the cartridge about halfway between the minimum and maximum lengths. Record the magic case length.  Measure between loadings (before and after sizing) to make sure that the case is not stretching too much.  If it is stretching, make sure you are not pushing your shoulder back too much during resizing. 

This was probably more info than you needed.  Be safe. 

[OlJarhead]

Thanks thanks and thanks!

Yes 2.540" was what the Lyman book I'm using called for as well as the Hodgens reloading recipe for Sierra 150gr FN bullets.

I fought and fought and squished some cases trying to get a crimp that would prevent the bullet from being pushed deeper into the case on chambering...

Then I got out my caliper (actually it's always out so that's a figure of speach) and measured the round each time I pulled it out of the chamber and it kept on measuring 2.498" to 2.500" for 6 different test rounds no matter what I did with the press.

Then I realized I had some Fusion 150gr FN bullets in the reserve box so I pulled out a brand new box and put the caliper on one...guess what?  2.500" on the nose.

So much for 2.540".

What I find interesting is that the same thing happened to me with my M1A when I started trying to reload for it.  I kept having issues getting test bullets to chamber and I was pressing to the books OAL.  IN frustration I pulled out some new federals I had with the same bullet and found the same darn thing:  much shorter then the book called out.

I guess the book is a guide and lists Maximum OAL and I take it as gospel that I have to press to that.

I've repressed all my rounds to 2.500" and have had no issue with them changing in length when chambering.

So, now I need to look again at the Lymans book and see if I missed something...I'll post back shortly.

[OlJarhead]

Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th edition page 214:

Dammit!

I could kick myself seriously....when you read this you will understand if you reload:

150gr Jacketed RN

Yes folks, I had a brain fart and it damn near cost me.  RN......RN.....RN.....ROUND FLIPPING NOSE!

This manual does not list 150 gr Jacketed FP or FN

It lists a 170 FN at OAL of 2.540" so clearly that is the problem...now I need to go back to Hodgen's site and see if I missed it there too....

[OlJarhead]

150 GR. SIE FN     IMR     IMR 4895     .308"     2.550"     31.5     2071     32,200 CUP     33.5     2213     34,300 CUP

Looking at Hodgen's reloading data I see C.O.L. which I take to mean "Case Overall Length" which doesn't make sense but it shows at 2.550"

I'll keep digging

[OlJarhead]

My Sierra reloaders manual doesn't list the OAL so it was no help.

Hodgens was no help.

Lymans was no help.

My little 30-30 handbook which I forgot I had has the Sierra 150 gr FN as COAL of 2.520"

So it would seem that my Fusion Bullets were the best indicator of what I ought to be setting my OAL at?  I took a manufactured bullet and measured it and came out with 2.500" which is what the chamber seats the bullets at if I put in a long test bullet.

So um...I'm only a little confident that I've got it right and still don't like the crimp but I cant get the crimp tighter without damaging the cases.....new die time?

[OlJarhead]

Last post, I promise....in this exersize I saw something else:  Each manual seemed to have a different opinion on how much H4895 to use ranging from 27.5 gr to 34 gr.

Is this typical?

Man I've loaded thousands (and shot) .45ACP and .45 COLT rounds and while I had a learning curve I've had more trouble learning the 30-30 then I imagined!  Heck my .308's have worked very nicely and I'm shooting them out of an M1A for crying out loud!!!  LOL for those not familiar with the M1A/M14 it has a reputation for destroying brass -- specially brass not properly inspected or re-loaded!

[NM_Shooter]

I don't see that bullet as a model that Sierra currently offers.  How old is that box? 

Give the folks at Sierra a call and see if their tech folks will talk to you about minimum OAL. 

Powder charges also vary depending on primer type and case.  Primers can vary quite a bit between vendors.  Case wall thickness (mil ammo is crazy thick) can cause pressure differences too.  For that matter, be careful when deburring primer holes.  You want to clean them up, not make them bigger.

Richard Lee says that starting load for 150grn bullet w/4895 is 29.8grns, with never-exceed at 34grns.  I would never load to the never-exceed without working my way up and watching for hard extract and flat primers on the way there.  If this is a plinking gun, stay on the low side.  Brass will last longer and pressure won't be an issue.

Some cases are also made of different alloys.  For example, Federal cases are a very soft brass, and I can't use them in my match AR15 which has a very tight chamber.  They just won't extract reliably (Frank White / Compass Lake Engineering suggests not using them in their match uppers).  I had a friend give me a case of Federal .223, and I ended up giving it away. 

Sounds like you are getting closer....

[OlJarhead]

I don't see that bullet as a model that Sierra currently offers.  How old is that box? 

Give the folks at Sierra a call and see if their tech folks will talk to you about minimum OAL. 

Powder charges also vary depending on primer type and case.  Primers can vary quite a bit between vendors.  Case wall thickness (mil ammo is crazy thick) can cause pressure differences too.  For that matter, be careful when deburring primer holes.  You want to clean them up, not make them bigger.

Richard Lee says that starting load for 150grn bullet w/4895 is 29.8grns, with never-exceed at 34grns.  I would never load to the never-exceed without working my way up and watching for hard extract and flat primers on the way there.  If this is a plinking gun, stay on the low side.  Brass will last longer and pressure won't be an issue.

Some cases are also made of different alloys.  For example, Federal cases are a very soft brass, and I can't use them in my match AR15 which has a very tight chamber.  They just won't extract reliably (Frank White / Compass Lake Engineering suggests not using them in their match uppers).  I had a friend give me a case of Federal .223, and I ended up giving it away. 

Sounds like you are getting closer....

OLD!  I was given two boxes of sierra 150gr fn bullets that were 'new' (never opened) and sold at Payless for $7.95 a box!!!  hahahaha

So ya, OLD.

It's a plinker and for that matter not as much as I'd even like honestly but it's so darn pretty I have a hard time shooting it much anymore when I can just pull out the M1A which I LOVE to shoot (need a match rear sight for it but the price is giving me heartburn), or my Puma 92 in .454, or any number of other options I have

But I love the challenge to reload for the 30-30.

I loaded up a box at 32gr's of H4895.  Maybe a little hotter then I should have but I went with the 'middle' of the road on the first few I looked at.

[peternap]

You're spending too much time worrying about overall length.

Make a dummy case, no primer and an uncrimped bullet. Pull the bullet as far out as it will go then chamber it. That's your maximum length to the lands.

Don't start your loads middle of he road. Until you get a good handle on the burning characteristics of a particular powder, use the minimum load load and work up from there watching pressure signs.

I have a box of those FP Sierra 150's in .307 diameter. I got them in the late 60's. Some of the old 30-30's had tight bores. (You should slug yours to make sure)

Looking back at my notes from then, 3031 was my best powder for them.

[OlJarhead]

You're spending too much time worrying about overall length.

Make a dummy case, no primer and an uncrimped bullet. Pull the bullet as far out as it will go then chamber it. That's your maximum length to the lands.

Don't start your loads middle of he road. Until you get a good handle on the burning characteristics of a particular powder, use the minimum load load and work up from there watching pressure signs.

I have a box of those FP Sierra 150's in .307 diameter. I got them in the late 60's. Some of the old 30-30's had tight bores. (You should slug yours to make sure)

Looking back at my notes from then, 3031 was my best powder for them.

Thanks Peter.

Slug a bore?  What is that?

This old Winchester has had every imaginable cartridge shot through over the years but it still acts like a fairly new rifle (that always amazes me)....my dad shot 500 rounds through it on the bench in '67 after he bought it to break it in and hunted with it a bit back then.  Then it sat waiting for me and by 1980 I was buying a box of shells here and there and plugging them through it...by '86 I left it to join the Marine Corps but got it back around '88 and once again began shooting it....kept shooting it too right up to a few years ago.

Now it sits in the safe in a sock waiting for me to pick it up again (which is what I'm doing now).

Sometimes I wonder why I just love to shoot this rifle but then I realize that anyone would.  After all, it's both aesthetically beautiful as well as being smooth in the action with that long long barrel making it easy for anyone to shoot accurately.  It's like the perfection

[peternap]

Slugging the bore is driving a soft lead oversize slug through to measure. It's a must if you plan to start shooting cast, but a good idea even for JB's.

And yes, I understand your fascination with it. I like all guns,love most but am absolutely devoted to falling blocks and lever actions. Muzzle Loaders fall into another but related affair.