Roughing in a road in Vermont

[walden_pond]

Hello and Greetings, fellow owner-builders. I am building a 24 x 32 cabin on 48 acres in Vermont. I am planning to rough in a road (about 1,000 feet) to perfect building spot. It will follow an old logging road, so there are virtually no large trees or rocks to remove; terrain is relatively flat too. I got an estimate from a local contractor to do a hard pack road, complete with trenches, etc., and to dig trench for laying electric cable for $15,000. Is that insane?

Is this something I can do myself with a backhoe and just buy hard pack and get a roller? (sorry, i have no idea about such things).  

thanks in advance for any tips/comments/thoughts!

Cheers  ,
Trey

[peter nap]

That's probably about right for a contractor.
I have the same situation except I had to go more like 2 miles total.
I bought a tractor because it was cheaper to do it myself......and I wanted a tractor





This weekend I have to build a retaining wall on a section that ithat I put a culvert in and is too steep to get the tractor over. I'm piling dirt up with the tractor and pushing it in with the atv.



J also have to watch out for the neighbors They slow me down some

[glenn kangiser]

Welcome to the forum, Trey.  

Using average pricing we have talked about here on another thread, I think it was around $10 to $12 per foot, I priced one out for a customer - about 600 feet including rock, cutting ditches, putting in a big culvert, moving a couple hundred feet to a lower area in very steep mountain country, and I came out around $9600.  

Tires for my Bobcat are $375 each.  Rocks are not nice to them when dozing in this type of area.  I use a set of 4 in a year on the average.  Insurance and truck license is around $4000 per year.  Contractor Liability is around $4000 per year for a small operation.  Fuel for this job -- probably $300.  Rock here is $44 per yard.  Wages, maintenance  and helper are on top of that.  

This particular location may require double the loads with a half size truck.  Switchbacks are so sharp that my pickup won't make them in one shot.  The hill is so steep that last time I worked there my truck stalled coming out of the site - ran out of power - couldn't go back or trailer would have went off the edge  as truck would have slid uncontrollably, so had to lock the brakes there and unload to get out.  If the work is not done this year the gully will wash out again and we will start over next year.  I just roughed the old road in this year to get a load of landscape rocks out for the owner.

So -- I would say I think your contractor is in the ballpark of fair.

[glenn kangiser]

Also - If you are talking about road base, a roller is probably not necessary.  A tractor like Peter's with a box scraper with rippers- three way hydraulics (up-down, tilt left and right for crown and ditches, angle forward and back is the best) and a loader could do the complete job if you don't have major dirt to move.

Nice neighbors, Peter -- I think some of their relatives went through my garbage cans a couple weeks ago.

[Kevin]

Trey what part of Vermont are you in? If your in the Northeast Kingdom I can give you some advice on price's and equipment rentals.
Kevin

[walden_pond]

Wow, thanks everyone!  Very kind and helpful!

@Kevin. the land is in Plymouth, quite near the historic town center. I may still take seek your advice if that's ok!

@Glenn. thanks much for professional input. very helpful. and good to know that my contarctor was in the ballpark, so to speak. just wish there was some magic way to do it cheaper and mostly on my own. I wish you were located in VT, as I'd hire you!

@Peter. GREAT pics and nice tractor!  

Again, very helpful and thanks to you all  

[glenn kangiser]

I'm in central California about 40 miles west of Yosemite NP.

We can get crushed slate around here for about 1/2 the price of rock.  It lays flat and makes a pretty decent road for lighter volume use.  Kind of plates over themud but is a bit soft so may get a bit dusty during the summer.

You should be able to rent equipment or buy if you plan to have use for it later.  Just keep in mind that the skills to use it effectively may take a bit of time to develop.  Also -- even though your contractor appears to be in line you could ask around locally-- there may be a hungry guy willing to do a decent job much cheaper.

[walden_pond]

Thanks again, Glenn (and too bad you are not nearer). In addition to the road, i need to dig a trench to lay electric cables. Is that something I can do at same time? Again, the road path is flat and has no obstacles. It's a bit wet in one area, so a good drain will be needed. And I will use whatever I can get cheapest (slate, rock, whatever).

And I would like to learn to operate loaders, so I'd welcome the opportunity and plan to spend a bit more since it will take me longer to become adept (is it difficult to learn?). I have a reliable builder/friend in the are who volunteered to show me the ropes on one. Also, guy down the road can rent his for 75 an hour! (good rate) plus 50 or so to bring up.

Cheers, friend.

[glenn kangiser]

Yeah - I'm on the other side of the world and you are up past your bedtime.

I would think that for $75 an hour the operator should come with it.  Maybe things are more expensive there.  I try to get $80 an hour for my big Bobcat with me. Seems steep to me and a backhoe takes a bit to learn to be efficient - or maybe you are just talking about a tractor.  Should be cheaper I think.

The trench could be done at the same time with a backhoe but then you would not have a box scraper - it mounts where the backhoe goes so it would not be real good for  the road with only the skip loader and the hoe on the back.

[glenn kangiser]

A trencher could probably do better on the trench.

[walden_pond]

Gotcha. thanks, Glenn. (and I am in Tokyo, so it's 3:30 in the afternoon here!--its you who is up past his bedtime

[glenn kangiser]

I always stay up too late and most times get up too early, so that's why I'm half goofy.  I need some excuse.

I am in Tokyo, so it's 3:30 in the afternoon here!--its you who is up past his bedtime

Hmmmm, guess I should have checked his IP address, but I wasn't expecting any trouble from him.

[Spanky8n]

Hello Trey,
I second the idea of buying a tractor if your able to. You will find it to be a very useful tool on 48 acers even after the cabin is built. You will find trees to move off your road after a storm, a long driveway to maintain and crown, and snow removal will become a fun chore. These are only a few of the things I have used mine for. During the build there are many uses for it from moving materials around to hoisting up walls. Sure you can do these things without a tractor but for me I am more independent since purchasing one. Most recently I used it to help hoist up the trusses and install a patio door. I did both of these jobs alone on different weekends. I would of needed more manpower if I did not have the tractor. I am constantly finding more jobs for it and I would rate it as one of my better purchases IMHO.
Dan

[FrankInWIS]

  someone mentioned a learning curve on running tractors and such.  Boy can I relate to that!

I had 15 BIG dumps of sand brought in to my place last week (base for my garage/loft to be over 2 feet above my flood plain).   The guy who was going to eventually spread it couldn't be there (my great septic guy [gave me a bill for less than the proposal!])  said if someone wanted to run the skid steer (with tracks) to push the dirt back in the striped down area, that might help him take less time later.  
My brother in law (81) did if for a while, but the heat was a killer.  I tried it a few times after that, and slowly got the nerve to work on it a lot.  I wasn't sure he wanted a rookie running it, so I didn't push it.  I was proud,  I went from being absolutley the lamest person to ever run a skid steer, to someone who could at least move buckets of material around.
Boy did I re-appraise how I did when Jeff the septic guy stopped in Sunday with his boys to pick up a check.  He got on the skid steer "for a few minutes" and in less than 45 minutes he crafted the huge piles of sand into a muti decked work of are for the various purposes it had to serve.  He looked like an artist at work, repainting the landscape in bold quick accurate strokes.  I was amazed to watch such a pro.
So true so many times,  I can do a lot of things, but many times a pro is 10 better and faster.   I tend to be selective and job out things in the catagory has such a wide spread.   Sheetrock, shingles, ...other?

[walden_pond]

Dan, are you by chance a tractor sales man J? Because you make quite a compelling case. I will look into it. Can you suggest a good "starter" tractor? Thanks in advance, Trey

Hey, Frank. I second that on the "artistry" of a pro. The guy who dug my test pits maneuvered through forest and dug pits quickly and with pin-point accuracy, barely breaking a sweat as we sweated watching him at his trade. Inspiring stuff.  Peace.


BTW, this forum is the best thing since toast was invented. So many helpful, genuine folk!  Arigato (i live in Japan now)

[tc-vt]

I'm in the NEK and on Monday just had my driveway done.  It's about 425 feet long and was done with a roll (425 feet x 12 feet) of geotextile and 8 loads of crushed gravel for $2250 (around $5.30 per foot).

The driveway is a boulevard compared to the mess it was.  It will be topped off with a layer of
sta-matt (sp?) later.  No culverts were needed as it is fairly flat.

Tom

[glenn kangiser]

You might look for a good used one but on one of my jobs a customer had a Northern Equipment one and he loved it.  Not real big but reasonably priced.

http://www.northerntool.com/tractors/

Note that I buy every toy I need then do jobs for others with them.  You have to get enough to cover your repairs and tires etc too.  I get $80 for my 963 Bobcat - got $60 for my 825 and John Deere Backhoe - tractor - loader-  Same rate for moving fees.

This would be after you are pretty efficient running them -- such as things are natural to you -- the machine is an extension of yourself -- other than that you may want to do things a bit cheaper.

[walden_pond]

Glenn, will do. Though I worry I won't find much uses for such "toys" after i complete the project, unless of course I make them my business (do you give training courses out their in beautiful CA??).

Tom, thanks for input. Sounds like you got a good deal. My road will be flat too, so maybe won't need culverts as well.

Cheers, guys!

[walden_pond]

btw, here are some pics of the land.

[walden_pond]

and this one



edited to move pix to Photobucket - GK

[walden_pond]

Here's a view just down the road (and the reason i love this area); looks like England to me

[glenn kangiser]

Nice scenery.

[glenn kangiser]

Training -- you bet.

If you are careful purchasing you can usually sell it for what you paid for it or more sometimes.  Don't forget that things break and can also cost lots of money to fix.  No free lunch. :-/

Note - a Photobucket account -- free - will allow you to post lots of pictures to the same posting.  Instructions in
Forum News section.

[Spanky8n]

Trey,
Those are beautiful pictures. What a great spot for a cabin. I can see why you would fall in love with veiws like that!
No I am not a tractor salesman    but I would love top be   I would look for something in the 30-40 horsepower range with a loader. I agree with Glen that if you are careful you could buy a used one and sell it a year later for what you paid for it. But I am still betting you are going to want to have one around those 48 acres after the build!

Dan

[peter nap]

I'm going to stir up a hornets nest I expect.

I would look at the rice burners. I bought an Emorybuilt 45 Hp with front end loader and bushhog, for 10,000. I got a deal on one that had 20 hours on it. The owner died right after buying it. A month earlier, it sold for 19,000.00.

I looked at everything I could find...New Holland, Kubota older Fords, etc.

The simple fact is...there are no compact or midsized tractors made in this country anymore. Before everyone starts, made in America and assembled in America from Chinese parts are different.

When Kubota first came out, everyone said the same thing about them that they are now saying about the Chinese tractors.

Chinese tractors do have some quirks but are just flat out, a better deal.
I would not buy anything smaller than a 30HP for what your doing. Also get 4 wheel drive, When you get a bucket full of dirt, you lose a lot of traction in the rear wheels.

Parts are NOT hard to find and in fact many New Holland parts are interchangeable (they're made in the same plant apparently. The dealer had a New Holland that they sent by mistake) and resale is good if you offer it to the public instead of a dealer.

I have had no problems with mine except a loose hydraulic fitting (30 second fix) and an electrical problem because the dealer is an idiot and doesn't know positive from negative.