Building Sustainably - how do we do that?

[glenn kangiser]

There are now inexpensive winches that can hoist goods - not people - in a situation such as this.  120v AC.  Harbor Freight is one place that has them.  Proper rigging is essential for safety though.

[Amanda_931]

I have a manual one somewhere in storage.  Expect it would carry a basket of books from, oh, say, five to twelve feet.

But yes, having a load break a piece of truss or a rafter would be a major bummer.

[Okie_Bob]

First, I freely admit I'm a dummy when it comes to the topic of 'green building' even tho I have read a bit about the concept.
My question is, would Hardy board and metal roofs qualify as 'green'?
In building my place, I have tried to build to last in every way I can think. I did use Hardiboard, 26ga metal roof over factory built trusses and a foundation of concrete blocks high enough off the grade to never worry about contact with the earth. And, I use Icyene insulation and no ventilation in the attic, low e glass all around, etc, etc. Does any of that qualify?
Okie Bob

[John Raabe]

Both metal roofing and cement siding have high embodied energy - much more energy is needed than for wood siding and shingles. However, both have potential lifetimes longer than the more renewable wood products.

Built in the right place and taken care of for 100 years or more the equation looks pretty green! But, no one knows the future and the actual 'greenness" of your choices can never be determined beforehand. That's why you can't get too serious about this topic. Maintenance over the long term is a huge factor.

[littlegirlgo]

John
Sorry to disagree   BUT  I think we should be too serious about this topic. Not only are we affecting our health (indoor pollution) when we build and the longevity of our building  - we are having a great impact on the planet. We can (even one person) have an impact on the economy and the health of our planet.

In building green we think seriously about our decissions to try to create balence. Roofing is a good example. Obviously a roof has to have certain characteristics such as water proof, strong and durable. Metal roofing is durable and highly recycleable which helps to balence the high energy output for its construction. But here again you can get metal sheets and shingles made from recycled metal. What goes around comes around  

I'll shut up for now  

[Amanda_931]

Either there's not one answer to any sustainability question, or we haven't figured out what it is yet, IMHO.

For instance--I've been thinking about roofs lately.

Metal roofs are fine (at least for a plain roof) if you are going to harvest rainwater.  They're pretty fair for keeping run-off to a minimum.  Or some of the rubber roofs are water-collection listed.  But there are probably problems with both types of roof.

Living roofs--like Glenn and Sassy have--are probably more sustainable if you're not.  They help at least as well for mitigating runoff.  But they pretty much require the EPDM liner, which may or may not be pollution-free/sustainably manufactured.  And they require heavier building.

On the other hand thatch may help get rid of obnoxious opportunistic weeds cluttering up ponds and waterways.  Probably, if well installed, it works almost as well as 25-year asphalt shingles.  Unfortunately not many people still know how to instal them in this country.  And there are fire problems with it.

Round wood is (in a lot of applications at least) stronger than an equivalent volume of milled wood (grain isn't screwed up as much), but how do you use round wood for rafters, especially if you want a metal roof?

And so on.

One of the nice things about Tony Wrench's book is that he really does agonize in detail over the decisions he makes for his low-impact house.

I'll also recommend--again--Ragged World--by Judith Moffett.  In which the Aliens demand that we live sustainably.  What seems most important to her in the 80's when the stories that make up the book were written is not quite the same as what we're thinking about now, but it's still remarkable....  And, incidently, when the stories came out individually in Asimov's I did a happy dance every time I saw there was a new one!

[John Raabe]

What I mean to say about not getting too serious about sustainability is not that it is unimportant. It is important.

It's just that you make your decision with the best information you have and then step into the future - which might just make your decisions null and void when the freeway comes through the living room, the hurricane hits, or they find that bamboo flooring is toxic to pets.

It's like raising kids - it's important, but not serious. You do the best you can at the time and then have to let loose.   and.... we are just fooling ourselves when we think we will ever have ALL the information to make the RIGHT decision. Next week the information will be different.

And about our houses... aren't we all just building with future landfill materials anyway? Except for Glenn, of course, who's building with future sediment materials.  

[SusieQ]

We had a article in our local paper some time ago discussing new roofing shingles that are used as solar panels.  We are waiting with bated breath for them to be more mainstream (read:  CHEAPER), so we can redo our house with them.  We were also sorely disappointed to realize our 90+ year old house originally had a slate roof that was replaced with non-descript grey asphalt shingles.

As far as building sustainably, when is the McMansion going to go out of style?  It's got to cost a fortune to heat/cool/maintain those houses!  It's refreshing to hear that some builders are getting away from them.

I also heard an ad recently for an on-demand heating system, from the same company that makes tankless water heaters.  Seems like a good idea to me.  I was also wondering if anyone has improved on the heat pumps I remember from the '70's?

Just my thoughts for the evening...

SusieQ.

[glenn kangiser]

Well--  if you think about it -- I think I'm building with present day landfill materials -- salvage and dirt to cover it up.  Yup -- that's me. :-/

Sitting here in front of the 1920 Round Oak wood stove barbecuing my steaks over the same fire I'm using to heat the cabin.  What could be more sustainable than that?  

[John Raabe]

Glenn: It's fascinating how an interest in thriftiness and imaginative recycling naturally leads to sustainability. This doesn't usually make the slick magazine spreads on the topic (as it doesn't attract advertisers), but it's a powerful unrecognized element of many owner-builder projects.

SusieQ: Heat pumps, especially ground source units have become considerably more efficient in recent years. However, the entry fee is high and it may not pencil out for a smaller house. More cost effective for smaller houses are the tankless heaters (both for water and space heating) that almost eliminate the standby losses of typical water heaters and boilers.

Solar shingles are going to be very big when they are cost effective - which may not be that far off. Plan the attic with some appropriate wiring pre-installed so the hookup will be easy.

[littlegirlgo]

I am building for a future recycling facility not a future landfill. Hopefully my building will go on as some future undetermined thing.  

Actually I'm not building yet, trying to get $$ together for plans from John and the Septic tank guy.  

Amanda I am totally in sinc with Tony Wrench - I'm in true agony over my building decissions. Its a good thing my job, school and kids keep me somewhat focused or I would be totally obsessed!!

[John Raabe]

I like that thinking Littlegirlgo.   Thinking in terms of recycling our projects makes a lot of sense.

[Sassy]

An interesting site I ran across today - lots of links - here are a few...

Sustainable Energy in Motion Bicycle Tour

Aprovecho Research Center
http://www.aprovecho.net/stoves/

Design principles for woodburning cookstoves
http://bioenergylists.org/stovesdoc/Pcia/Design%20Principles%20for%20Wood%20Burning%20Cookstoves.pdf

http://www.lostvalley.org/

[Freeholdfarm]

I was thinking about the houses the Romans left behind when they abandoned England -- the Britons salvaged materials from the Roman villas after they no longer knew how to maintain and operate the water and heating systems.  I wonder if that will be the fate of some of the houses being built today?

My thoughts on sustainability are that no one solution is going to be good for every location.  For instance, if I was building in an area prone to hurricanes, I would be building out of cement (termites, as well as high winds) and probably either a dome or underground.  In the far north (which is much more likely to be my destination -- I was raised in Alaska and hope to go back someday), I would build underground, with minimal windows -- probably a Mike Oehler house.  And so on.  Each region needs to have it's own indiginous housing that is best suited to the conditions there.  

Kathleen

[Bellla]

Thinking about where to put bookcases I realized that hallways would be a natural place.  Make the hallway a bit wider & build in bookcases with a potential for adding doors (in case you want storage later).  Don't forget some lighting to be able to find what you're looking for!

Bellla

[Sassy]

One whole side of the hallway in our house in the valley is built-in bookshelves... plus we have lots of bookshelves around the house that aren't built in - I'll need a library in our cabin to fit all the books!  I don't think we'll have any hallways...

[Amanda_931]

I don't think we really know how to build--or live--sustainably.  Might not be too hard for other people to do better than I do--friends have but don't now (or are currently gearing up to) grow 90 per cent of their food from their own land, for instance.

Some people (e.g. Tony Wrench and Ben Law in Great Britain) and some countries seem to be on their way to doing it--if not right, at least more with an eye to the future than we do.

Sometimes I think all I do is tell people to read Ragged World.

New legislation from Spain--the URL may tell you enough--and there ain't text there unless you go to the link (presumably in Spanish):

http://www.hugg.com/story/Solar-spain-All-new-renovated-buildings-must-have-solar-power/

[Amanda_931]

But of course there are nay-sayers everywhere.  Even the UK.

Most of us--and especially Glenn--can poke holes in the argument (and just how many hours a day do you run your hair dryer?), and if it is the vertical swirl version in the picture that that company sells, some of the noise and structure arguments (not to mention the placement) may be semi-overcome.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=415993&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments