Forget banning Guns this could ban home gardens

[Jens]

They are all a bunch of lousy crooks, and should be destroyed along with their alters to Baal.  Policing my vegetable garden?  Pleeeeeease.  Charging me $1,000,000 per day?  I'd like to see em try to collect that.  Putting me in jail for taking part in my GOD given right, and command to cultivate?  They'll be the one's with a firey placecard, not me.  If this bill does go through, I will do everything in my power to get anybody and everybody to plant their own garden.  We are not too far from having a prison country here as it is, might as well throw the whole lot of us in, then where will the taxes come from?

Oh yeah, ofcourse Monsanto, and those other demons in bio-engineering will be ok, their food has nothing wrong with it, it'll be organic stuff that is not safe for consumption.   

[desimulacra]

It's not that far fetched for them to tax home produced food. They already have crazy income taxes.  The end goal of all of this is to control the people.

Far fetched??? One of my favorites is they are taxing people in cities for non-porous surfaces.

[considerations]

"One of my favorites is they are taxing people in cities for non-porous surfaces."

Why are you surprised?  Ever since i can remember they've been taxing people for dying. 

[tanya]

Capitailism in and of itself is just a fine and working aspect of our lives UNTIL the govt. starts using taxpayer money to uphold and save failing corporations.  We are on the brink of losing our liberty if we haven't already that money has to come from somewhere and that will be taxpayers pockets no doubt.  In THIS country at the PRESENT time we cannot be forced to purchase or work for corporations against our will.  When the govt. starts regualting food prodiction to only corporations and making people work at designated positions to get thier govt. stipends THEN we no longer see capitalism we see FACISIM!!!  AS we all know by now the American consumer has figured it out and they know they rule the worl, not our govt. not our corporations but our PAYCHECKS.  Maybe it has gone to their heads a bit in the public sector, but things will even out eventually unless govt. continues to back corporations before the individual taxpayer.  I hear onthe news that the govt. is trying to make credit available with these corporate bailouts but no one I know WANTS any credit in fact the people I know are paying thier credit cards off as fast as possible and refusing to take anymore.  No body in ther right mind would buy on credit in these difficult and uncertain economic times.  I thinkt hat might be why the focus is on creating jobs.  BUT we do not have to give up our civil rights ( as in being regulated when producing our own food) just to be able to work.  It is time not to ask what we can do for our corporations but what can our corporations do for US!!!  And some in govt. and business are actually getting it.  The ones who aren't don't deserve our support/business anyway. 

[Jens]

Capitalism isn't the problem, IMO it is corporations.  They take capitalism, which makes it possible for somebody to work their way to "success", and swallow it whole, what they crap out is greed that changes the way everybody thinks about product and services.  Have you ever been to a city dump?  Less than half of that stuff would be in there if not for corporations.  The corporate system is the downfall of civilization as it has always been known, all they do is relabel genocide "progress" .

[MountainDon]

If it wasn't for corporations where would my refrigerator come from? My computer? The solar panels I bought so I can have electricity in the mountains? The gasoline I put in my car or Jeep to get to those mountains?



And the list goes on and on.




ED: corrected one of my spelling typing errors

[rwanders]

The behavior of some corporations is just another example of what can happen when "people" get together in a groupthink process----perfectly intelligent and caring individuals can come up with the most amazingly dumb and sometimes evil decisions----It has nothing to do with being in "corporations" or legislatures or committees-----it's just human nature----sometimes sublime, sometimes ridiculous!

[muldoon]

seems to me capitalism works fine.  its crony capitalism that failed us.  this concept of too big to fail does not belong in capitalism.  By definition, a failing company should fail so that healthy companies can replace it.  By keep the zombies alive we have destroyed capitalism. 

(as bush said, we have to abandon free market principles to save the free market). 

all we saved was the fraud, the liars, and the cheats.  Thats not what capitalism is about. 

[tanya]

OK I hope no one minds if I bring this back to the govt. and gardens/farming.  I recently, like back in January started looking for mini goats to buy and raise when I first started looking I saw baby goats for $60-75 dollars.  Now they are running at over $250!!! I think people got wind of the coming famine and decided maybe mini goats are a good investment. Shoot!!! I should have bought some right away, I cannot pay $250 for a mini goat when I could get a calf for that, this is farm/cattle country not the city.  I wonder if the govt. tracks mini goats.  I know they have a big thing going on where they want to tag and track all cattle and people here don't like it.  It seems to me that if a family has cows that they are not selling or using to produce products for sale then the cows should remain untagged.  I am not sure how tagging cattle would keep people safe though, or what the purpose of tagging them is other than branding to keep them from being stolen but most farmers agree with that practice.  I think it is to prevent mad cow being spread but once a cow is found sick the mad cow disease has already been spread about so I just don't get it.  I do support the new law though that says butchers and meet packing plants can't take non ambulatory cows.  It is sickening to think they needed a law to make that happen do these producers/ranchers have no shame? 

[considerations]

So, I looked up the legislation and read the "definitions". Yep, it could easily include my garden plot. So, I went to the representative's website to write to her about it.  Problem; the website only accepts emails from people in Connecticutt, where she is....(I was doomed before I started, can't remember how to spell Conn., a dead giveaway).  So I wrote to my own representative and pointed out the over encompassing verbiage in the definitions...  Maybe someone will read the email...

Candle in the wind....

[MountainDon]

The learning curve... yes, it is not unusual to be unable to directly email a rep if your address is not in their area. That's why we all have our own reps. It has been my experience over the years that emails and letters are all read by someone. I have not kept track, but I would say that my senators (staff) have probably answered each and every letter and email; my newly elected congressperson (against my wishes), is either slow on the responses or is simply living up to the poor opinion I have of him.

In any event they do keep tally of which way the wind is blowing; sometimes though it doesn't seem to blow strong enough.

[pagan]

This reminds me of the National Animal Identification System.

[Squirl]

OK I hope no one minds if I bring this back to the govt. and gardens/farming.  I recently, like back in January started looking for mini goats to buy and raise when I first started looking I saw baby goats for $60-75 dollars.  Now they are running at over $250!!!

That is more of a pet price than a food source price.  I see that often for specialty breeds such as miniatures.  If you are willing to buy a cross breed, not pure breed, you can get a good deal.  We have baby goat does for $30 and bucks for $15 around me.  People are selling 5-6 lambing sheep for $200.  I am starting to see some good prices in this market.  People need money more than they need the goats right now.  You can't pay your mortgage or truck payment in goats.  The market for livestock can vary drastically.  I have seen chicks selling at $5 a piece and laying chickens at $4.

[Jens]

Yeah, I would think that you should be able to get goats and sheep for less than that, that is more expensive than the meat cost!  Goats and sheep are very good  farm animals, don't eat too much, not as much work as cows, very hardy. 

"If it wasn't for corporations where would my refrigerator come from? My computer? The solar panels I bought so I can have electricity in the mountains? The gasoline I put in my car or Jeep to get to those mountains?"

Without corporations telling you that you need these things, would you really?  Would life really be that much easier/harder/different without them?  I think it would be different in a good way.  And remember too, that there was a time when many of these things could have been brought to us without the help of big corporations, and it seems to me that the majority of people who lived in that time look back on it very fondly.  Even the Depression isn't the horrible time in the memories of most of those who lived it...as long as they weren't simply dependent on a job, or the city, or big companies for getting by.

I think this goes right along with the main topic of discussion, because it's about the fiscal majority trying to keep us tied to them.  Who do you think is really behind a bill like this?  I think it's big farming, corporate farming, and GMO's are the major charge, personally.  They see that people are looking to be more self-sufficient, and want to shoot that down.  They need everybody to be dependent on them, and will do anything they can to keep us enslaved to them.  "Pharaoh, let my people go"  rings just as true now as it did thousands of years ago, to my ears at least.

[pagan]

Jens,

I agree with you regarding corporations and I don't think it takes too much effort to see who really wrote this legislation. Politicians are prone to calling regulatory power as protection, and unfortunately many people fall for the line. Having lived without electricity and refrigeration for almost four years I can tell you these are very nice to have. True these things are not even close to necessities, but they are conveniences I'm willing to pay for having.

[Windpower]

The original sponsor of HR875 Rosa DeLauro is married to a Monsanto Lawyer


Imagine my surprise

ADM, Monsanto, Tyson, Cargill are pushing this bill (lobbying) big time

the Senate version is S425 and is virtually idenical so that debate will be minimized and they can fast track this legislation.


But wait there's more

Organic farms will likely become obsolete.

You see, earthworms are an invasive species

therefore organic farms will have to kill off all invasive species (presumably even earthworms) so that they can operate within the guidelines set up by the Department of Food Safety

I know, you think I'm a loon

google "earthworms invasive species" 

[MountainDon]

Without corporations telling you that you need these things, would you really?  Would life really be that much easier/harder/different without them?  

So what period in history are you saying we should be thrown back to?

I really question that statement of yours. Personally I do not believe corporations tell me to do or buy anything. Corporations make lots of stuff available; stuff like the refrigerator (and freezer) I questioned above. You're telling me life would be better is I didn't have those two items? Do you want me to go back to an ice box and forgo the convenience of having access to frozen vegetables during the winter? Or do you want me to forgo refrigeration altogether? I've seen how the early settlers of the west lived in the 1800's. I don't care to go there, to live that way.

Science, inventors, entrepreneurs and yes, corporations offer me the opportunity to purchase a host of items and services. I have chosen to buy items like the refrigerator and range because they make keeping and cooking food more convenient. Ditto the use of a natural gas fueled furnace. {Please note that I have also lived in a country where every day I had to purchase small quantities of foods that required refrigeration to keep safely because I did not have access to a refrigerator. During the cold weather I kept warm by wither putting on more clothes or by the sparing use of a kerosene room heater.} The range and the furnace not only save me time by relieving me of the need to cut, split and store firewood, they provide me with time to enjoy other pursuits. Not to mention how smokey the air would be if everyone around me was also burning vast quantities of wood for cooking and heating. Some of the readers here are too young to actually realize how much cleaner our air is today. Check your facts before you say it is not.

And guess what, it was corporations, with workers like many of us, who made that happen.

If I was listening to the corporations who are supposed to be telling me what I need, I wouldn't still be using the stereo equipment I assembled piecemeal in the late 1970's, with the addition of a CD player added in the mid 1990's. Yes I'm still enjoying my positively ancient Harmon Kardon and Bang & Olufsen components. No remotes. Fancy that! Look at all the opportunities to spend money I've resisted. I do not own a portable CD player, MP3 player, iPod, etc.

The new LCD (26") TV we recently purchased was purchased solely so we could position the TV on the coffee table near the sofa. The old CRT TV we replaced had nothing wrong with it; the date stamp on the rear says it was manufactured in July 1990. It is in the office while the TV that was in the office is in limbo awaiting the time to be listed on craigslist. The old TV was too large to be conveniently placed closer to the sofa. Placing the new TV close like that has made it possible for me to see print on the screen once again. Age related eyesight problems are edging me towards blindness. We could have purchased a 60" flat screen TV and placed it on the wall opposite the sofa. That would have worked as far as seeing the picture. We made the conscious choice to buy smaller. Some corporation developed that LCD technology to the point where the new TV cost me less to purchase than the TV it replaced; that's in price tag dollars, unadjusted for inflation. As far as the question "do I need a TV?" No, I could live without it. But why? We select programming that interests us; most of it being informational TV, not the mindless crap that occupies most of the channel spectrum. Once again, everyone has a choice. No one is forcing people to sit and watch countless hours of reality TV shows, etc.

One of my points here is that living in this time is wonderful! Not only is this a wonderful time to live this is a wonderful country to live in! We have the choice to partake of whatever we want as well as having what we need. We have the choice to work at jobs we select, or not to work if that is what we choose.  We would not have as many choices in how to live, where to live, what to buy if there were no capitalism based corporations. I could go on and on describing choices I have made that to me illustrate why I believe I have chosen my life rather than living a life foisted upon me by so-called evil corporations. (Things like we live in the same house we bought in 1985, things like we've usually bought used vehicles and traded up when it was either a necessary or better choice. We bought our first new outdoor grill in over 24 years just last year: how many times have I walked past the shiny displays of new ones? Most of the furniture in the house is 24 years old or older or made by myself. I use a pay as you go cell phone; last years cost was less than $75 for the whole year.

I like having today's choices. I do not think I would be better off without having these choices. Anyone can make their own choices. That is good. That does not make the array of available choices bad.

Those are my opinions on corporations.

As muldoon stated "seems to me capitalism works fine.  its crony capitalism that failed us. " We do not have to toss the concept of capitalism and corporations to solve the problem.

[Squirl]

ADM, Monsanto, Tyson, Cargill are pushing this bill (lobbying) big time

Not a surprise.   $1,000,000 maximum fine seemed a little light for actual enforcement.  While it seams like a big number for a small farm, there are laws and courts to protect them from levying it on people who can't afford it.  But to a company like Tyson who has revenues of 26 billion a year, this would barely effect the bottom line.  It probably wouldn't have to be disclosed in SEC filings as material.

[tanya]

WE also have laws written into our constitution protecting us from subsidizing corporate crooks, where are they now?  AND it would be VERY NICE if we had a choice NOT to bail out these idiots!!!  Instead of the govt. taking the money right out of taxpayers pockets.  Remember two thirds of the senate and 40 percent of the house are millionaires. Of course they want to protect their investments but I could give a crap as long as I eat good food, I'm good. I like my power fridge as much as anyone, TV, stereo etc.  But I don't expect the govt. to make sure those items are made available.  Now I WOULD like to see my govt. make sure things like health care and food are available.  Nutrition is a huge part of health and taking the people's right away to grow their own NON COMMERCIAL garden by mandating you allow federal agents into your space is facisit plain and simple. 

There is NO public safety componant to this law, no authorization to shut down a facility that is accepting non ambulatory cows over and over, no authorization to shut down farms where food is being picked up off the ground where animal feces is, etc. etc. etc. just keep on getting those fines.  I am appalled!!!  NO one is saying corporations are evil but they should be held as damn responsible as anyone else when it comes to production and safety standards. 

Here is jsut one example I am quite irritated with today.  Every year as long as I have lived here the loggers have to park thier heavy trucks during spring road thaws to prevent the roads from breaking up.  Now the gold mine has even bigger trucks and they are running their regular all day schedule roads and taxpayers be damned.  The state highway has the speed limit marked down to 35 mph because the damageis so sever but they are allowing those big trucks to keep on trucking even though 35 mph is not going to prevent road damage from heavy ore traffic.  There are sink holes forming every few minutes and someone is bound to get hurt sooner or later.  My guess?  Oh the stimulas package is gong to fix those roads don't you know. 

[tanya]

"(1) to determine whether the food is contaminated, adulterated, or otherwise not in compliance with the food safety law; or

(2) to track the food in commerce."

Ok I was wondering what the purpose of the law is so I went back and the above issues appear to be the govt. concerns.  What I can't understand is why is Montesano lobbying for it?  They stand to be inspected, rejected, injected, etc. 

What is adulterated food?  The food safety law?  Why should US citizens not involved in commerce give up their right to privacy, and the right to pursue happiness?

HOW DOES THIS LAW PROVIDE SAFETY MEASURES?  You can fine, fine and fine again and without the authority to shut it down who can be sure anyone is safe? 

Who will the garden police be and what happens to grandparents and the poor who don't pay and continue to garden? 

Do these politicians get paid to think this stuff up? 

I think I would be a MUCH better dictator!!!!

[Jens]

There is a multi-billion dollar industry founded on telling you what you "need" and convincing you of what you want, it is called advertising.  The amount of advertising is much larger now, than even when I was little.  I think it is a pretty safe bet (without drawing actual data) to say that it has risen over the last 100 or so years.  I just heard something, that kids up to the age of 5 can't even discern between advertisement and entertainment.  Any parent with TV stations, or a kid in school, or a kid with eyes, can tell you about how much crap they see on the TV that they want.  Or how about when they go over to their friends house, and want/need the same things their friends have?  The sad part is, that people (by and large) these days, equate happiness with having stuff, or having new stuff.  Our society teaches us that to be a success means being just another wasteful sheep, bleating at the gates of dispensability.  Your fridge?  You could possibly have a better means of keeping things cool if for the individual mind, maybe not.  Your Jeep?  Maybe a better vehicle too, maybe not. 

All I know, is that the small family stores are closing down all over the place.  Manufacturing is closing down.  People don't know how to make dinner, let alone a sweater!  The family farm is becoming a thing of the past, because of corporate farming, and GMO products, which have the potential to alter the world in such a drastic way that there will no longer be any purely natural crop anymore.  That angers me!  It really does!  This bill, and bills like it, seem to me like just another way for those demons of greed- who pervert prosperity in such a way that we no longer (generalization) have any morals in this world- to get their firey little fingernails deeper into our necks, and leave their mark on everyone and everything. 

I heard something from the Rabbi tonight that was funny, yet sad and all too true.  The difference between morals and ethics; an ethical man will recognize that it is wrong to sleep with another man's wife, a moral man just won't do it.  Ethics be damned, if there are going to be corporations (which there always will be), we need to have moral ones, nothing else.  We need corporations that will not try to put out other people; their goals, and beliefs, and rights; with BS legislation, hit men of all kinds, and economic holocaust.  And yes, that is what all of this is to me.  Holocaust.  Burning of all those who, although they don't pose a real threat, "we might just help ourselves to the 10% market share that they retain", little stores, that grew in a truly capitalistic society and are no dying in a perversion allowed and encouraged by the governmental system. 

[pagan]

Tanya,

Monsanto can afford a few fines and they most likely would never pay anyway, but small scale farmers could never afford even the minimum fine and they don't have a vast bank of attorneys to defend them. Monsanto wants this law because it can easily be perverted to put many small farms out of business. Look how Monsanto has gone after famers for copyright infringement because the farmers' non-GMO crops get cross pollinated with Monsanto's Round-Up Ready strain. The farmers have no recourse and are left with huge fines owed to Monsanto and no crops to sell because Monsanto ceases everything. I can easily see Monsanto using the courts to attack small organic farms in an effort to shut them down. Not even considering the potential fine, just look at how much it would cost to defend yourself and attempt to produce enough "evidence" to satisfy the courts that you're in compliance with this law. 

[ScottA]

How do you get a copyright on a life form? That's messed up. 

[Jens]

Its not the corn that is copyrighted, it is the genetic engineering.  Basically, the DNA strain, that is not natural, is what they have copyrighted.  They have made corn, as well as rice, and some other staples which I can't remember, I assume "in their image", which is invasive, empty, fascist, greedy, as well as possibly a few other descriptions.  These strains are all of this, as they take over all natural strains through cross-pollination; think of AIDS, that is basically what it is; and make it almost impossible to grow what nature intended.

[ScottA]

So if their pollen got on my corn they'd claim they own my corn? I'd argure that their pollen is air polution that has harmed my crop and sue them for that. But then again I'm sure all the judges are on their payroll so that would be a waste of time. I hope they'll be the first to swing if this causes a famine. Where can i get a "Monsanto Sucks" tee shirt?