Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)

[Redoverfarm]

Eric although my set up is a little different than yours you might extend the maximun run time to  stop a little more.  Mine is 6 hours.  It never runs that much because it is fully charged in about 2 hrs & 15 min but Magnum told me to set it higher than actually what it needs.  Also unfamilar with  your inverter but mine has to establish a full charge as set before it will establish what the SOC actually is.  Mine will indicate "Thinkin" until that is met.  It will cycle way too often until that high SOC perimeter is met and established.  It uses my 220AH as a basis of what that SOC and voltage should be. The voltage on mine is 48V.

[OlJarhead]

In my case the inverter doesn't control the gen run time but the Magnum switch does and it can be set from 1 to 5 hours.  I've set it for three but am thinking you might be right on the time as it's been over two hours and the charger is still going strong with voltage only now breaking above 28vdc.

The SOC utilized the 220AH setting (x3 for three banks so 660) to determine % of charge once it's determined the bank is fully charged.  It does this with the voltage setpoint of 28.6v and the Amps setting (based on AH rating of the bank x2 /100) which in my case is 13Amps.  When the meter sees the charger has dropped below 13Amps and the bank has reach 28.6v it determines the bank is 100% full.

At least that's how I understand it however I'm not certain it would be accurate if the generator stops with the bank at 28.6 but absorption now completed and charging into float....in this case the bank might not be fully charged though I'm not certain about that.  I'm going to switch the meter to 4 hrs and see if it goes past 3 now that it's already been running 2 1/2hrs and not yet into float.

[OlJarhead]

Found this cool magnetic protractor at HD recently and finally got to try it out.



It allowed me to accurately set the angle of my panels to 63 degrees which is what I need this time of year.


Pretty steep but then the sun is pretty low on the horizon these days and will be for the next few months.

It will be interesting to see how much production I get on sunny days vs what I was getting at 55 degrees which is roughly where I was when I last adjusted the panels using the old 'eye ball' method.

[OlJarhead]

One of these days I'll get this entire system moved into the new room and when I do I swear I'm going to ix the wiring and make it neat and tidy!  But for now, this will have to do as I have many pressing issues I need to resolve first before moving the system.


Of course, when moving the system I will have to rewire everything and that will be a perfect time to correct this horrible job!


It's not pretty but it gets the job done and I'm glad I now have the auto start working as well as the 24-12v converter.

Now I need to get serious on the back room, installing the heater, finishing the interior, insulated etc etc....once done I'll then move the power plant and free up the space on the porch.  Then maybe I can get some firewood cut too!

[MountainDon]

When you move / rebuild the battery setup you should try to not have any electronics over the batteries.  For a couple reasons...

1.... some inverters, chargers, charge controllers do have relays in them and they are not necessarily gas tight. Hydrogen could be ignited by a relay sparking. A long shot but...

2.... I have a friend who has 4 GC2's on a low shelf against a metal shed wall. After 3 years of use you can see a distinct pattern of slight rustiness on the metal wall above the batteries. I believe that is from the batteries; maybe from acid vapors from high level charging.

3.... Inverters or charge controllers mounted above batteries does not meet code. For the above reasons? Not sure...

[OlJarhead]

Thanks Don!  That makes a lot of sense though I hadn't thought of it before.

In Telecom battery banks (small ones and probably AGM now that I think about it) it is common to have the rectifiers and DC shelf directly above the batteries so I never considered that it might not be a good idea.  I'll have to rethink the way I planned to install a little but to be honest I don't like all that stuff above them anyway because it makes it hard to reach anything and dangerous.

I must admit that having 12 batteries now and using them a lot more gives me pause to think about the Hydrogen gas a LOT more.  What was once only a passing thought that I figured I'd need to do something about has now become a more pressing issue as I watch the batteries charge at over 28v and know that means they are gassing (though I don't know how much).

[Redoverfarm]

Eric you might consider one of these to vent your batteries.  This is what I have in mind when I get around to it in addition to isolating the battery bank in an enclosure.  The guy that spec'd out my equipment advised that since I am using a generator a relay could be installed to activate the vent when the generator is running which in essence is charging.  The specific type of vent escapes me now but apparently it is one that prevents ignition of the fumes which a standard vent fan will not.  The name will come to me later.

http://zephyrvent.com/

But I got to looking at a ventilation fan which is spark free as well similar to a computer fan which could be adapted to PVC pipe.  Probably work for about half or less of the price this company wants. 

[OlJarhead]

Eric you might consider one of these to vent your batteries.  This is what I have in mind when I get around to it in addition to isolating the battery bank in an enclosure.  The guy that spec'd out my equipment advised that since I am using a generator a relay could be installed to activate the vent when the generator is running which in essence is charging.  The specific type of vent escapes me now but apparently it is one that prevents ignition of the fumes which a standard vent fan will not.  The name will come to me later.

http://zephyrvent.com/

But I got to looking at a ventilation fan which is spark free as well similar to a computer fan which could be adapted to PVC pipe.  Probably work for about half or less of the price this company wants.

That's the same one BAckwoods Solar has and they have a switch that you can get with it if your charge controller doesn't have a 12v power take off lead (some do,some don't - mine don't).  You adjust it to just below 28vdc where the batteries will start to vent and then it will run as long as they are above that voltage and shut down afterwards.

They advised me to put a air inlet vent in the bottom of the enclosure to draw in fresh air and put this vent up top.

Makes sense to me.

[OlJarhead]

Couple notes on the auto gen start and inverter/charger as well as TriMetric meter.

1.  You can adjust the timer on the Magnum AutoGen Start switch while the generator is running.  I changed it from 3 to 4 then 5 and left it at 5.  The Generator ran for 5 hrs an 10 minutes.
2.  The Inverter/Charger was running at about 60% for some reason (perhaps I bumped something - the setting is very sensitive and I was nailing a wire staple into the wall under it.  I need to adjust it back to about 85% I think (it is a 50amp charger at 24v which I take to be a 1200watt charger and I've had it adjusted to 850watts but today it was down around 770 for some reason).
3.  The Inverter/Charger using a calculation to determine the amount of time in Absorption based on the amount of time it takes to get to Absorption voltage, so for whatever reason it decided it need longer today then it did last time -- this tells me that I will likely have to run it on manual at least once a week to make sure the system goes into float which it did not do today.
4.  Thank to the TriMetric meter I was able to watch voltage until it hit 29.9vdc (which I thought was a bit high but there isn't a way to adjust that and it's based on lead acid batteries at 24vdc) and then switch to watts and watch to see when the watts began to drop from its high around 770.  Eventually it should drop to float wattage but unfortunately today it was running about 400watts when the generator shut down so I'm guessing I was 30 minutes from float or so.
5.  The TriMetric meter saw the drop in amps from the charger when the generator stopped and read that as 100% of charge which I know isn't actually quite right.  Unfortunately I'll have to wait until I actually fully charge the bank to be confident in the meter reading but I think this is just what happens when you first start out with this setup. 

Anyway, so far so good!  Tomorrow will be the big test as I'm going head home for the afternoon and night to see my wife then go to meetings all day before returning likely after dark.  I'm going to record the hours on the generator and see if it runs at all while I'm gone.

One thing I noted today was that it took about 21 hours of abusing the system to get the bank voltage to drop to 24vdc and stay there long enough to kick on the generator.  Tonight I've shut off the TV not long after the generator quit and while I am listening to the radio it takes a lot less power I believe.  I also only have one light on (rather then 2 or 3) etc etc...my intent last night and this morning was to abuse the system a little to see what happened, now I'm going back into a semi-conserve state (hey it would be a little tough out here in the woods alone if I couldn't at least watch TV now and then!)

Anyway, that's enough for now  

[Redoverfarm]

The controller of the generator has a history & run log that you can look at to determine when it ran.  Mine shows "ready to run".  Push the escape buttom and four catagories show one being history.  Use the scroll arrows to get to history (blink) then run log then push enter.  It will show you when it came on and when it went off.  That is if you have set it up to the correct time when you activated the generator. Then just push escape to get it back to the "ready to run" status.

[OlJarhead]

Thanks -- I knew it would tell me the hours but I hadn't thought of the history setting!  DOH! 

This morning the bank was at 24.7v under load and the meter was reading 97%

I can see that the open voltage of the bank would likely rise a little when not under load but I am not sure it would go up 1/2v 

[OlJarhead]

This morning the TriMetric monitor read 91% of capacity at 24.7v under load.  I think that's a little off but have decided that I may switch to 210AH on the batteries as 220AH might be a little off since these are commonly shown from 210 to 235AH (if memory serves me right).  So, saying they are 210's is probably a safe bet and might get me closer to reality ojn the monitor.

I've also been thinking of shutting down the freezer as I don't really need it and would rather not have to run the generator as much as I think it will this winter.  I go home every couple weeks anyway (actually I'm going home today and again on the weekend) and can always stock up then.  After all, I find I don't get things out of the freezer much since it's just me anyway.  Heck, I still have leftovers my wife sent me with that I need to eat so it's likely I won't pull anything out of the freezer this week anwyay.

Killing that ought to save me a lot of energy and give me an extra day or two on the batteries if I'm wise and don't abuse them.

Not running the generator daily would save me propane which would be good since there is NO refilling the tank until the spring (acess is a real issue in the winter for anything other then a jeep (or other good 4x4 or tractor) so no propane truck is making it to my place until March!

I must admit that I'm still wrapping my head around battery capacity and SOC.  Seems to me a 24v system ought to be still pretty well charged at 24v but then I'm not a battery guy and I do know that Telco systems don't like running much below 48v...perhaps a call to some pros would be good.

[MountainDon]

Seems to me a 24v system ought to be still pretty well charged at 24v but ...

Is a 12 volt system pretty well charged at 12 volts?  12 volts on a 12 volt system means somewhere between a 40 to 50% SoC. Double the volts for a 24 volt system.  Not pretty well charged.

And what is going on when that reading is seen? How long since the last significant load or charge current? As always that has an effect on the reading and what can be discerned from it. How about the specific gravity reading? 

[OlJarhead]

Received this informative reply from Bogart (TriMetric Meter folks):

Hello Erik
My basic response is that it's hard to determine from voltage of a battery how charged it is.  The exception for that is when the battery voltage goes above 14.4V while charging it's pretty well charged, or under 11.2  while discharging it is almost empty.  In between those voltage readings can only be somewhat relied upon when the battery has not been either charged or discharged for a half a day or so. Trojan also mentions this in the "fine print" accompanying these charts--often not noticed by people using voltage to determine charge.

Incidentally, I just looked,and  I now see in Trojan's "users manual" that they don't even SAY CLEARLY that this is the case. They used to-- now they  just say it is the "open circuit" battery voltage.  This is VERY CRITICAL--and in older literature they said that is only applies after the  batteries have been standing for 24 hours.

This is taken directly from Trojan in a different place on their website (much too hard to find):

For accurate voltage readings, batteries must remain idle (no charging, no discharging) for at least 6 hrs, preferably 24 hrs.

That's why the TriMetric uses "% charge" based on a measurement of how much charge is removed from a "full"  battery, rather than using voltage--because people using the meter generally are charging or discharging the  battery.
  A better way is to use a hydrometer to monitor the specific gravity of the acid. Even for that, the battery needs to be recently charged at above the gassing voltage to make sure the acid is sufficiently mixed to give a good reading.

In short-- unless you follow Trojan's condition (above) the only time voltage is useful is when it is either very high, (while charging) or very low (while discharging).

Ralph  Hiesey

[MountainDon]

A better way is to use a hydrometer to monitor the specific gravity of the acid.

Seems to me someone here has been chanting that for years...   

[OlJarhead]

Seems to me someone here has been chanting that for years...   

Yes true, though I noted this key to that statement:

... Even for that, the battery needs to be recently charged at above the gassing voltage to make sure the acid is sufficiently mixed to give a good reading.

None of my readings were taken after charging above gassing voltage except maybe one and that was during not after actually (though I might also add that those readings were not overly good.  I think they were 'fair' on the hydrometer.

[OlJarhead]

I CAN rebuild it! I just tore apart the valve assembly on our 1922 clawfoot tub that's here at the cabin and found the little plastic valve at the end of the valve plunger was off the cold side and plugging up the valve. I was able to get it back on (the little screw was no longer screwed into the end of the plunger) and it works perfectly now HOWEVER the hot side plunger cap (plastic seal disk on the end) was completely off, the screw missing and the cap tore up. I removed it and can turn on the hot with the main valve behind the tub but now must find replacement parts. I believe this is something I can actually find though and am searching for one now.

Meanwhile the shower works better then ever now!

[rick91351]

I CAN rebuild it! I just tore apart the valve assembly on our 1922 clawfoot tub that's here at the cabin ...............snip........

Meanwhile the shower works better then ever now!

Sounds a lot easier than the electrical thing you are going through......

[OlJarhead]

LOL Perhaps but I think the electrical thing is now limited to, well, the limit (of power that is).  I just need to get it dialled in now and then I should be good to go.

[OlJarhead]

Morning world!  The cabin is a nice 70 degrees this morning (76 by the stove and 60% humidity which is nice) and I'm happy to say I had a nice and long sleep   Oh sure, I was up a couple times stoking the fire but then don't you wake up 2 or 3 times a night too?

Battery bank was at 24.6vdc which is where it was when I went to bed and that means this is now day 3 since the generator last ran!  Clearly the freezer was eating up too much power and now without it the sun and batteries are able to keep up for the most part (at least on weekends when I am gone and that's a major plus in my book).  SO as it stands the generator ran the 14th (Thurs) and the 16th (Sat) and may or may not run today (my guess is that it will run but probably not until this evening since the sun will come out and boost the bank back up a bit before it gets abused when I make it home and want to watch some TV while making/eating dinner etc.

Since I found an assortment of valve seals for old taps at ACE (the Hardware Place) I plan to try to rebuild our nearly 100 year old taps on the tub/shower and then may even bring one valve into ACE since they have a gauge to check which exact size and style of valve you have (yes, even for the 100 year old ones).  Once done they can actually order replacements which totally amazes me.  No guarantee of course, but still frankly that's awesome and amazing and maybe those old tubs and valves were better then what we have today....just saying that a nearly 100 year old tub/shower and valve assembly that STILL WORKS and is rebuild-able seems a lot better then our modern THROW AWAY crap.

[rick91351]

'Morning world!  The cabin is a nice 70 degrees this morning (76 by the stove and 60% humidity which is nice) and I'm happy to say I had a nice and long sleep   Oh sure, I was up a couple times stoking the fire but then don't you wake up 2 or 3 times a night too?'

Yep..... but not to put a log on the fire.  Nuff said 

So glad to read that you are getting stuff sorted out and nailed down.  Not easy to do when you are trying get'er done in a couple weeks......

[OlJarhead]

Ya not quite at the 2-3 times a night for that reason yet but I doubt it will be long -- no drinking at 10pm helps! lol

It sure does feel good knowing that I CAN make this work   Getting things sorted feels pretty darn good!

[OlJarhead]

Day three and the generator has no run yet but I've reset the switch to start at 24v and run for 5 hours as I know the sun isn't giving me quite enough charging power so I suspect it will run this evening and give me a full charge

And for more good news I've fixed the tub facets!  The seals I bought at Ace worked fine!

[OlJarhead]

Yikes!  Got into my old XJ this morning and fired it up but noticed something odd, the headlights didn't seem to be working.  I messed with the switch a little but to no avail.  So here I sit, it's dark out, and all I have are parking lights! 

What worries me is that the lights worked fine last night on my way home and I shut them off when I arrived so I know there was no issue at that point.  No reason for a fuse to blow between now and then I'm thinking, which leaves the switch (most probable), pack rats (possible -- they've chewed through a fuel line on an ATV once) and a loose wire (less likely since the vehicle didn't move once I turned off the lights) and perhaps lastly the cold (was a bit chilly this morning so maybe something is frozen up a little (can't imagine what mind you).

Either way, I MUST get that fixed as I leave in the dark and return in the dark most days.

[jsahara24]

Get out the multimeter!  Possibly corrosion?  Love the old jeeps, so simple to work on compared to the new vehicles. 

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2