Panama Trip Report

[John Raabe]

Well, with all this talk of snow and cold weather, how about something completely different?  

I'm still adjusting to our cold weather (20º at night but only a few patches of snow) - but it was also 89º in Panama City when I left.

My brother and I were in the country to scout out a possible retirement land purchase for he and his wife. I expected to go along for a warm weather get away but fell more in love with the country than I expected to. What I found was lovely healthy people who are hard working and open. A country very welcoming to retirees. A better state of satisfaction with government and better protections for the people than you can now find in the U.S - more freedom and more democracy as well. Also, in many ways a healthier economy with many many opportunities (being actively explored both by Panamanians and new residents).

First of all here are some photos to give you a taste of what we saw: http://www.countryplans.com/panama/

This little travel log starts out in Panama City a big but uncrowded city with very good infrastructure. Then we went up to two highland areas in the 3200 to 3500 foot elevation - Volcan and Boquete. Both are very interesting smaller towns.



Boquete Panama (above) has a more attractive community and has much more going on - especially for foreigners. We stayed at a wonderful pension ($15.50 per night for both of us) and ate Panamanian food several nights ($2.50 for a simple but full dinner- flavored rice, beans, chicken, salad and plantains). Went out to dinner one night at a fancy Peruvian place and couldn't spend $20 even with imported wine and a big tip. The Boquete area feels a bit like Big Sur California or Hawaii in the 1940's.



The Volcan area is more remote and does not have as many North Americans. However there are some lovely parcels of land that would make a wonderful homestead. Both Volcan and Boquete have almost ideal weather - spring like temps all year round. The Spring Haven property (image above) may be of interest to some (contact the developer, Bill Hemingway at hp3xbh@tierrasaltas.net)

[Mommymem]

Wow. Very nice pictures. Thanks for sharing.

[PEG688]

 Great photos John , love that pic of the great building restoration. I see it cost at least a leg,  state side I'd guess a arm and a leg.




 If ya didn't see it , 2nd floor balconey, just right of center  What do ya think that's all about ?

Very nice country , reminds me of Palma  Spain in some ways .

 PEG

[John Raabe]

I think that restoration is an artist's pad - they can do things like that I hear.  

[glenn kangiser]

Nice pictures, John.  Cool looking area.  Is land affordable there and what about foreigners buying it?

Are gringo's allowed to work there to support themselves or must they bring in outside money?  

Full of em tonight, eh? :-/

[glenn kangiser]

The picture labeled -Boquete storm coming in-  has the building in the center with what appears to be the corrugated tarpaper roofing or Ondura.  It was big in Mexico with laborer shacks built out of it.

In Mexico in the village we went to clinic in some of the locals were the "rich" land owners and the people from South West Mexico - the Oaxacans or Oaxacalita's were the poor farm workers.

[John Raabe]

Land is not inexpensive. $35k for a town lot, $90k and up for view acreage. Foreigners can own land and can start businesses (there are tax advantages for doing this). Retirees who have an outside source of money such as social security ($500/mo or more) can get a special status where they get 20 years exemption on property taxes, get discounts on travel, medical services, power and phone bills, etc. Very good program.

Building is less expensive. A fully equip new house can be built for something like $35 to $45 per SF. About half to 1/3 the cost in the U.S. Labor is considerably less expensive as is medical and professional services. You can get health insurance for $68/mo.

A good book on all this is Choose Panama. Here is a link to a site called Move to Panama.

[Amanda_931]

Looks lovely.

Active volcanoes?

[John Raabe]

In new houses they do design for earthquake loads. There was a pretty good jolt a few years ago. The volcanoes are not active (at least not as active as they are in my area of Washington!  8-)). Interestingly, the building codes are tougher there than at home. Both a licensed engineer and architect have to stamp the plans - along with an electrical ENGINEER to stamp the electrical plan! (that's a new one to me! I don't know too many electrical engineers who know much about home wiring.  8-))

I'm sure that most of the local rural folks don't worry too much about this permit business... but a gringo would need to!

Many new houses in Boquete are being built using an interesting building technique called M2 panels (Covintec). I couldn't find anything on this system on the web. It is an engineered foam block panel (4'x8') with reinforced stucco on the outside and inside. It has some similarities to ferro-cement. It replaces the standard 4" and 6" concrete block that is used in much of Panama. You don't need insulation in this climate but the foam does do that well (and better sound insulation).

Very little wood frame construction. Framing lumber is imported (read expensive) and the local woods are used mostly for windows, doors and furniture.

I would have to do a lot more research before building anything there. (But I do want to go back again and spend more time.)

[Jimmy C.]

How safe is that area?
As far as Americans being there, are we hated as we are in other countries?

[CREATIVE1]

Agora Publishing/International Living has all kinds of information about Panama as a place to live and is involved in several real estate developments there.  Free newsletters, seminars (I've attended one) etc.
Here's the link:
http://www.agora-inc.com/agorapopbjy.cfm?source=nav&email=IL

[John Raabe]

Panamanians are very used to seeing Americans. They seem to have an open position on foreigners in general. I didn't see anyone give me an angry look or say anything negative about gringos. I also saw very little discrimination in their own country when it comes to skin color and natives (Indieos) vs "Spanish".

The town of Boquete (and many other places in Panama) were started by Americans and Europeans. The grand old hotel in town was started by Americans three generations ago.

I didn't talk politics with anyone (except Americans) while I was there, but I'm sure there are some opinions (I would hope so...).

[John Raabe]

Here is an area where my brother may be getting some land (there is talk of starting what may become a family compound).



This area backs up against the National Forest.



I think that sign is the start of the Volcan Baru Park (goes up and over the mountains).

[glenn kangiser]

Wow --like the Kennedy's.  Look's cool, John

[John Raabe]

That's what somebody else said today when I talked about this project. Whenever I think of the Kennedy compond I immediately think we will have to be very careful driving over bridges!

This will not be like the Kennedy's I'm sure (maybe I should call it a family hovel rather than compound).

I did hear back that they did buy it. About 4 acres right next to the park. Sweet.

[Maui Wowee(Guest)]

I know you guys are country plans small house nature junkies and all,
but i'm a bit concerned about what we're calling "develpoment", and whether it is actually, in a broader sense "envelopment" of a vulnerable place by middle-aged retirees who are often times, with no ill intention though perhaps a streak of selfishness, ignorance, and/or cultural anymosity, destroying the culture and character which they came there to enjoy.
If we are to discuss "development" in terms of an advanced quality of life that forms a more perfect union with all elements and entities involved, then we must include much more in our awareness than cost of living, climate, apparent local hospitality, and all the other things John just mentioned. We must see the role that we play in the community, the  local and national economy, and in the ecosystem. What kind of effect would it have if 10,000 others did the same as you?
Where I'm living right now, we're surrounded by landowners much wealthier than ourselves, who are living on land zoned agriculture and enjoying the benefits of that, and at the same time driving up land prices so locals can't afford to live in their home any longer.  We are trying to do sustainable organic and biodynamic agriculture on ag land and some of these landowners and their caretakers are fighting us to the death on this. Most of them are more or less "green-minded" people who love agriculture, just not anywhere near their "little peice of paradise". They want the fertile land to furnish them with beauty, solitude, and a great view. Agriculture is something distant that poor people or machines do.

Ohhh, now you got me going...
The point is: if you are going to buy a peice of land in Panama, and are going to enjoy all the benefits that the country, the community, and the land offer, then for Christ's sake think about what you are giving back to them, and don't tell me you're fine American Dollar, because that is just feeding the dependence on outside everything and deteriorating the delicate fabric of community (the self-defeating cycle again). Communities are like trees: if they're not rooted in the local soil and established from the ground up, they fall in the first wind. And if you don't know how to give back to the community, than you are missing something very important.
Remember the question: What would the consequences be if everyone chose what you chose?
If being wealthy (relative to your surroundings) is a fantasy of yours, grow up. Look into your heart, and your community for true wealth.
I hope no one is offended by what I wrote. I meant only to express these things and not to shame or blame anyone in particular.
Aloha,
MW

[glenn kangiser]

Are you a local Hawaiian, Maui?  Just trying to get an idea of where you are coming from.  The problem seems to be all over - not even as much with outsiders moving in from other countries as it is people from cities or high cost of living areas selling out to other people who can afford their place at the high cost then moving to a low cost of living area and making it impossible for the locals there to afford to buy property, however even the locals continue to try to get ahead buying lower cost property and renting it to people with even less income or who chose to rent or cannot afford property.  California city people sell out --move to the country and drive up the costs for country locals.  Still it's all relative-- 20 years from now all of todays land will be cheap.  Life goes on -----then it ends.

I don't see where living in another country should be an issue.  Looking at it from this side, there is no such thing as a pure society anymore.  In many of our US states or cities, Caucasians are a minority and even then, the Caucasians are not the native people.  Immigrants and illegal immigrants have come in to do the jobs we feel are below our stature to do.  Along with them they bring their culture.  Had a good taco or bowl of Chinese food lately?

It all comes down to being good neighbors, no matter where you are in the world.  Be a good neighbor - get out and meet, help, learn from, teach, share with the locals and you will be accepted.  Act like a snob who is above them or better than them and you will be scorned.

This reminds me of the local farmer who laughed as he told me of spraying his Mexican field workers vegetable gardens with poison because he didn't want them to have anything.  If he wasn't a jerk he would have found that the Mexicans would have happily invited him to sit down with them even after they had worked their tails off for him slaving away (yes-they are slaves - the technicality of paying them minimum wage or firing them before payday is only a loophole to pretend slavery is not alive and well) and they would have shared their fire roasted peppers, garden fresh vegetables, tacos and tortillas even though they had very little more.  Fortunately he is dead now and the world is free of a slimeball white American farmer.  Yeah - I'm white too- scum comes in all colors and I'm not afraid to admit it.

Love thy neighbor as thyself and things will work out fine- hopefully --as long as the people you have to interact with have the same philosophy.

Cost of land going up is a continuing process as long as there are people in the world - not even necessarily more people as it is possible for people to own more than one piece of land.

[John Raabe]

I'm not sure what MW's point is... Is all development bad? Are all landowners bad? Are all "rich people" bad?

Does he (she) think that buying and building in another country is somehow shunning or insulting the local culture?

True, there are jerks all over the world, just as there are people who will help and enrich the places they live. That doesn't seem to change much no matter where you live or how much money you have.

[Amanda_931]

We all occasionally do a "those people" bit.  As in "those people" are people we need to despise, look down on, or otherwise resent whether they are retirees coming in and driving the price of land up, Filipino or Chinese "guest workers" in the Marianas, the "gown" or "town" of town vs gown, or the "locals" or those with more or less education or whatever.

It certainly can be exaggerated when there's an expatriate community and a language barrier.  Goes both ways.  Always happens.  Most of us find ourselves doing it once in a while even when we've the best will in the world on the subject.

And, heck, sometimes the "giving back to the community" can be seen as condescending nonsense, or sucking up to the ex-pats if it goes the other way.

Not sure there's a cure, I'd guess even an occasional saint falls victim to the syndrome, but we do need to watch ourselves, try to see ourselves as others do, get some kind of big picture.

[glenn kangiser]

Off topic replies have been moved to [link=http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1142877098]This Thread[/link]

[John Raabe]

Just want to finish up the land deal report... My brother's land purchase in Panama fell through. When they had a local attorney review the purchase agreement and run things like a title search, the seller gingerly backed out of the deal.

Just as well I expect  .

No Kennedy compound for this guy... at least not for now.  :'(

So, here's advice to consider for any land purchase - especially one far from home: Always have an experienced local land attorney write and/or review the entire purchase process. Not only will they know the laws you have to follow, they are more likely than you to know the scams.

I have since learned that most of the land transactions in underdeveloped countries are "extralegal" transactions. The complex recording and title transfer system that we have in the U.S. is only now beginning to be common in other parts of the world. Such extralegal "native parcel" transactions are not necessarily intentional scams but the way most people buy and sell property between themselves. These are "off the book" transactions.

But this is not for foreigners. We need iron clad insurable title and that involves lots of paperwork, fees and maybe a bribe or two. Thus the attorney.

[John Halonen(Guest)]

Thanks John for your comments on International Living Page.  Have updated site to include some of the costs in Panama City for either retirement or information only.  Again at "http://www.trymyplace.com/panama/

Maybe next time I will get to Boquete also.

[CostaRicaJones.com]

Be careful of many of the sites that promote buying property overseas.  Usually they have a vested interested (read: LARGE INVESTMENT ALREADY) in promoting the area to retirees.  

Personally, I like Panama.  But I think it's the soup of the day for Americans considering retiring in Latin America.

I think that Chile is really the cat's meow.  It's just so damn far!

- Adam.
Get your dog to listen to you, anywhere you go.
http://www.dogproblems.com

[jraabe]

Adam:

I also want to spend some time in Chile! It has a fascinating culture, history and geography. Great place for season shifting since it is a hemispherical switch - but not something you would want to do frequently as you point out.

[Amanda_931]

Back in the days when flying was simple, friends of mine and I all thought that one house in the southern hemisphere and one in the northern would be wonderful so as to avoid your least favorite season--summer or winter, as the case might be.

Of course we didn't have the money--or the energy--to do it right.