Underground House Project

[dfar]

this is a fantastic thread and has helped solidify some of the ideas I've had for a future project of my own. I love the fact that you incorporated both the earthship/Oehler ideas to synthesize a design taking advantage of both design strengths.

I am anxiously awaiting more updates on your progress airloom. I keep checking this thread, hoping to find a new post. 

more updates please!! 

[speedfunk]

Hey...just curious how everything is going?  I hope all is well.  I was thinking about your shelter the other day. 
Jeff

[airloom]

With spring rolling around I decided to whip up a batch of AEM, forgot how too make it, looked through my bookmarks for Glenn's recipes, and remembered I started (and later abandoned) a thread on here!

I wish I could say I forgot because the house is finished and I'm too busy lazing around but I'm still plugging away at it almost a year later. 

Just to pick up where I left off, I did indeed bite the bullet and buy real EPDM, around $900 dollars worth.  I have not had a single drop of water get in since I finished the roof so I'd consider it money well spent.  In fact everything I was worried about functionally and structurally has been a roaring success thus far.  It's dry, warm, gets amazing natural light, and hasn't fallen over yet.  Thanks everyone for all the solid advice last summer.

Jeff, I'm honored the project popped into your head all these months later.  dfar, I hope you haven't given up checking back for updates. 

Some current pics:

The front:


The back almost all covered and waiting for grass to start growing.



I'll get up some updates on the intervening steps and some interior shots as soon as I have a sec.

[glenn kangiser]

Great to hear from you again.  Glad the EPDM worked out.

I also picked up some EPDM and will be putting it on over the original earth garden roof then putting a few inches of chips and soil over that.  Remodel time and time to put in the upgrades I learned about over the years... not too fast though...

Glad to hear you are using the AEM and that the info is useful to you.  We have a slate shower stall and use it for cleaning in there and keeping things fresh and friendly.  Sassy said she was getting an itch on her feet when she showered.  A scrub down with soap and AEM and no more problem.  We now keep a small bottle sprayer at about 40 to 1 mix and spray it down after showering.

[speedfunk]

looks great!!! A fun collection of different windows.  Can't wait to see interior pics.  But , I know how it is..I have fallen behind on our pics a bit too.  Amazing job.

[dfar]

very cool, thanks for the update and pics!!

[airloom]

Yeah, love the aem Glenn, I'm really allergic to poison ivy so it's helped with that.  Also use it on the garden and will use it around the house when I have a house to use it around.  Good stuff, I'm glad you posted about it.  Also plan on getting some chickens so I'll try it out on them as well.

Speed, not too many interior pics yet but I've attached a few.  I'm not as far along as you on the interior but I've been reading your thread and picking up some ideas.  I like how you've successfully incorporated a bunch of different flooring methods together since I'm trying to do something similar.  I was wondering if you could give me any more info on your joist setup for your wood floors.  I was thinking I was going to have to buy a bunch of long 2x8 joists but I like your way better and we're starting from a similar base so it should work for me.  It looks like the bedroom flooring's floating on metal (?) rails of some kind in gravel and the small wood section in the back of the big room is on 2x4's set in pea gravel (?).  I may have missed you explaining it but any more info would be great.  Any moisture problems?  Did you lay a vapor barrier under the rocks?   Do you have a name for this system or links detailing it?  Thanks, sorry for all the questions!!

I've also been thinking about American Clay as a finish plaster option.  Like how well it turned those sharp corners around the windows, looks crisp.

Most of my current interior pics have to do with the loft I'm in the process of finishing up.  I also made the decision that none of my wood is getting finished til I get in the house so there will be a lot of sanding, scraping, oiling etc as soon as I get in.

Putting up the loft joists...



Starting to put down flooring...



Flooring coming along nicely (I took down a house from the 1930's and all the lumber and flooring I'm using is from that, got about 4,000 sq ft of heart pine tongue and groove)



Some "urbanite" flooring under the loft (fancy word for broken up concrete pad laid like stone).  Will grout the gaps when finished laying it.



Tires are starting to disappear behind cob!



Will try to get some more shots of the inside as I go.  Need to finish up the loft flooring (got a cool railing up I'll get a pic of) and start on the downstairs wood flooring.  Oh yeah, plumbing first, gotta get the order right on that one. 

[glenn kangiser]

Airloom, are you using the AEM the same as Sassy does for your Poison Ivy.  She rubs it on full strength at the first sign of a rash or itching and it is gone in a few hours and the itching stops in a few minutes. 

If she does not put it on she gets major hive type rashes and itches for weeks.  Our experimentation on her confirms over and over that it works..

[speedfunk]

wow.  Things are looking great ..thanks for taking the time to post the pics!!  Smart move on not 'finishing' the wood till the end.  I have come to the conclusion that is a much better idea.  There are parts where we made sure to clean/sand but b/c of length of build we will be redoing them anyway. 

Floor details.  I can only say that I'm playing and that its not really set in stone HAHAHA  

The bedroom seems to working well with rough cut 2x4 set in pea gravel.  The "joists" are set 2' on center. The floor boards were green when we put them in.  This floor seems to be good so far.  There is a gap between the boards which allow the floor to breath a bit.  I belive the bedroom to be a slightly better method.

The kids rooms in the main section we did with 2x4's as the "joists" from home depot b/c it was sunday or something and I needed to get it going.  I think the crappy wood from them hurt the floor a bit.  We bought kiln dried red oak wood for the decking.  When we originally set it we put it  in nice and tight (board against board) thinking it would be fairly stable and should not move to much plus deb wanted it without gaps.  We did not use a vapor barrier on this.  We had the floor buckle a bit as the decking boards expanded .  I guess it absorbed  moisture ( which could have also been cause we were experimenting venting dryer inside (trying not to punch a million holes in the super efficient house) and there still is not vent for bathroom area.  When I removed boards to reset them with a gap like the bedroom I found some growth on the bottom.  Its interesting to note that the green lumber seems much more resistant to growies!  We cleaned and put back.  Its been fine since.  All though when I put my nose to the floor it smells a bit musty still.  I might end up putting a vapor barrier down which wont be to hard b/c its all screwed down.  I can just remove a couple of deck boards to get the plastic under them.   I'm not sure though b/c once the rear cape/umbrella/skirting that goes behind the house is on it should take care of all the water/rain that is come off the gutters and getting behind the house.  We are currently still getting some water in our crawlspace below the bathroom.  The cape/skirting that goes around the house should take care of this b/c its only after hard rains not all the time.  I guess i'm interested in trying to make it work without a vapor barrier.

As far as good quality 2x4's as "joists" resting on the ground it been plenty strong. 2 ' on center seems to support the 1" oak well.

I hope thats not too much for ya   The floor has been an experiment.  I (we) did not want a concrete floor everywhere like you.  I'd be interested to see what you do.  I know conventional wisdom says vapor barrier on everything however when we were building I left a piece of black plastic down and there was water droplets on the underside when the pea gravel next to it had no moisture.  So in a way the plastic gave the moisture somewhere to hide behind.  In my head I also have the idea that in the winter when we lack moisture I'd like to be able to "pull" moisture from the ground lol ? When the gravel floor was still everywhere moisture issues were never an issue, the ground mositure was unable to wick its way up the pea gravel.  Still playing on this one but the floor is functional and has no remaining issues all though might be tweaked in the future.

Its funny b/c your concrete chunk floor looks amazingly close to our living room floor.  We used stone from property but same idea lol.  It looks good.  How are you thinking of finishing your floor.  We used a water based poly but it doesn't seem to be holding up on the mortar part. 


The American clay works well.  We have no clay on this property at all that I can find so I think it was the only option.  You might have some being that you have been using and are probably pretty good at mixing earthen ingredients by now.  The also sell just the "binding agent" called ezup.   The American clay does not need to be thick at all.  We used surface bonding cement in the corners of the windows first .  Then just a thin layer of american clay over that.

your place is looking so good man ....

[airloom]

Oops sorry guys (and that's a gender inclusive 'guys' for the record), I seem to have drifted away again, too much going on at once!

Glenn - The AEM has saved me multiple times already this year, hardy crop of poison Ivy out.  I keep a a 50/50 mix in a little spray bottle and it does the trick.  Unfortunately I was outside at some friends house last night and picked up over 30 chiggers somehow so if you have any miracle cures for that, let me know.  I almost always have one or two being outside as much as I am, but this is nuts.  The AEM does seem to help the itch for like 30 min but it might be placebo.

Speed -

Thank you so much for such a detailed explanation!  That's about what I had deduced from your pics but it's nice to hear it explained and to hear how it's holding up.

I ended up going a somewhat similar route.  We have so much broken concrete pad lying around that I decided to make a ton of level piers from it and then laid a 6 mil vapor barrier on top, ran some pieces of my white oak flooring side to side (hard to explain, check pics) and ran treated 2x4s on top of the those.  It's super strong but I do worry about the small air gap underneath, not a lot of ventilation.  I kind of wish I'd done gravel like you so I'd have that nice vapor break but I hope the vapor barrier and treated 2x4's will make up the difference.  It saved me a chunk of change since I already had the concrete pieces and 2x4's free.
 
I watched the vapor barrier for a couple weeks before I put down flooring while I was working on other things and you're right, there was always a bit of moisture beaded underneath, which I'm fine with.  One thing that bothered me though is when the biggest weather shift happened in early may, there was a bit of moisture on top of the vapor barrier in a few dark corners for about 3-5 days.  I guess as the indoor air temperature increased at a much faster rate than the earth temperature, the warm air condensed on the ground-cooled barrier.  Anyway, the ground temp caught up after a few days and there was no more moisture so hopefully I'm good on that front.

And like you I hope that as my exterior drainage plans continue to evolve, the ground will contain less and less moisture to begin with.

I'm not sure how we're going to finish the concrete to be honest.  It was one of those things that my wife pushed that I wasn't really thrilled about but it's really grown on me, it does look kinda like flagstones or something classy like that.  I was thinking I'd mortar/grout the pieces and then sand everything down with whatever people use to make concrete floors smooth and then seal it maybe with some soyseal natural sealer (I don't actually know if any of this plan is feasible or if that sealer is legit or anything else, that's just my tentative plan until I get around to doing some real research, it's kind of on the backburner at the moment).

As for plastering, I think the final coat is going to be a lime render.  A friend of ours has some experience with this and tipped us off to a cheap local source so we've currently got a 55 gallon drum full of the stuff slaking away, will be a few months though before it's put to use.

I appreciate the thorough response though and apologize I missed it  for so long, thank you though!  We're going in some similar directions and tackling similar problems so it's nice to see how you're going about things.


Here's the concrete bits all leveled out and roughly in rows (kind of a PITA to be honest but whatever, cheap and very sturdy)


Putting down vapor barrier (white powder everywhere is how I keep my energy up... er... jk it's Borax for the termites.  Not sure if this actually does anything but it's like $4 a box and makes me feel better)



And 2x4s running lengthwise on sideways flooring pieces on concrete piers (I ran the pieces of flooring like that so I didn't have to hit the concrete exactly on top with my 2x4's which was hard with the plumbing drain running diagonally, weird but it worked.)



And oak flooring installed (salvaged it out of a new house that was tearing it out so it's still got that classic "16 polyurethane coats" finish going on.  Will probably sand down and do an oil finish.  Also, bathroom door and studs!)

[dfar]

Nice to see your back with an update and pictures to boot,
again great job on the house

[airloom]

thanks dfar!

a few more pics too, sorry it's so messy.  got the flooring about wrapped up, installing the woodstove tomorrow...

[pmichelsen]

Love the light fixtures, I purchased some similar to use on my property as well.

[akemt]

The bay window looks gorgeous!  Can't wait to see the layout when it is completed...

[glenn kangiser]

Cool pix, airloom.

Thanks for the update. 

We have also noticed that the AEM seems to help with bug bites.  I guess if in doubt just try it because there is nothing it will hurt ...and if a placebo makes you feel better..then so be it...

[Kris]

What a great project!!!!......

[airloom]

Hey guys, just wanted to update with some pics, things have come a long way since I last checked in.  Hope everyone's well.






















Been moved in now for almost 6 months!  Still trucking in water   Must... get...wellllll. 

[TheWire]

Awesome finish work!

[Tickhill]

Great job, love the finish work inside. Are those JBL speakers I see in the LR picture? Can't wait for more pics.  Tickhill

[speedfunk]

wow....I am just blown away. You have nailed it...just amazing. 

I love how you kept the transition from tire to concrete to wood honest and used it to your advantage (shelve space?) instead of trying to "trim" it out. I have a bunch of questions but will try to keep it manageable

1. is that a lime render you used on all the walls? 
2. Hows the floor and subfloor doing?
3. In general thoughts on house performance so far?

Good luck on the well.   Seriously what you have created is a functional work of art!

[airloom]

Thanks for the love guys, feels good.  I couldn't be happier with how things have turned/are turning out, way beyond my original expectations (but then so is the budget  )

As for the speakers, I started hanging out on audiokarma and next thing I know I've got piles of speakers and receivers   The ones on top are actually Grafyx which was a boutique speaker maker from Chicago for a few years in the late 70's/early 80's I believe.  Under them are some vintage Infinity 2 ways, and just out of frame some Accoustic Research 3 ways I'm refoaming.  I got most of them free because people don't realize that foam surrounds are easily replaceable and throw out perfectly good speakers.  So I've become a bit of a dumpster diving audiophile.

Speed -

1)  Yes we went with a lime plaster on all the tire walls.  It was one layer of cob to fill the holes between tires, a second layer of cob to bring everything to a flat plane, one layer of earth plaster to smooth things out, and one layer of lime plaster.  Then we painted it all with a few coats of lime wash to get it white (because the lime putty is mixed with yellow sand, the lime plaster itself is an earthy tan color, also nice but wanted white).

I love lime plaster; it's super cheap, easy to put up, tough, and it actually cleans the air for the duration of its life, cool stuff.  I think it gets a bad rap as being a difficult material to work.  But I liked working with it a lot, better than any of the earth-based stuff, though that's nice too.

2)  The flooring has worked out pretty well I think.  I'd change some things if I did it again.  I didn't use a subfloor because I was trying to avoid plywood and generally am making this up as I go along.  The old house I took down to get all the flooring didn't use subfloor so I basically just copied what they did when putting it back together.  The lower side where I used concrete piers and kind of copied your ideas worked awesome, it's very, very solid.

3)  The house performed really well through the winter.  I left for a 7 day christmas vacation during which the exterior temps probably averaged around 35 and when I got back the house was still around 58.  The average year-round temperature here is around 56 and with all the thermal mass and earth berming, our house never really dips below 60.  When I wake up it's usually 60-64 depending on how warm the fire got the night before and how cold the night was.  If it's sunny in the morning, the solar gain will consistently bump it up 6-10 degreese.  So it's usually over 70 by noon.  By about 6 it starts getting colder and I start a fire which I burn til around 11 which brings it well over 70 up in the loft by bed time.  So our avg temp through the winter was probably around 68 only burning wood for 4-5 hours a night. 

We'll see how the summer goes but it handled the winter like a champ.  It's looking like the solar array will be pumping enough power to do a small AC unit in the summer which should help a lot.  The power situation in general has been great, I have enough power to do everything I need to do and only have to think about power consumption if we have multiple cloudy days in a row.

The last big thing is water, I'm all plumbed up and ready to go.  I had planned to do water catchment which is possible off a green roof.  But unfortunately, you don't catch nearly as much per sq ft and after doing the calcs, it wouldn't be enough. So I've been pinching pennies and selling off excess bulding materials for months now to save up for a well.   

Anyway, this is getting quite long.  I'm always happy to answer any questions, everyone here has been so helpful with all of my questions and concerns.  Thanks again for the kind words, really gratifying!

[ben2go]

 

House is coming together nicely.

[dfar]

WOW! beautiful. Great job

You're making me take a second look at Oehlers book and also toying with the idea of building with tires once again.

Thanks again for the updates/pics

[airloom]

Thanks guys.

Don't fight it dfar, tires are where it's at!