Electric vs Propane

[Okie_Bob]

Anyone have any comments regarding the use of electric vs propane for central heating? I'm concerned about initial cost as well as long term cost projections of one vs the other. I will be building about 1400 sf of heated area with Icynene in roof and all exterior walls and possibly under floor on pier and beam structure.
We don't have natural gas available and the wife demands propane for cooking!

Also considering 'on-demand' hot water heater or tankless as some call them. I have not seen a totally electric or propane unit but, honestly have not done much research yet either. Suspect since the ones I've seen are natural gas, propane probably is available. Pros and cons on this are welcome as well.
Okie Bob
PS: location is East Central Tx facing north on a lake front lot. Cedar Creek Lake if you know the area.

[Jimmy C.]

We have always used total electric.
I know it costs much more to operate than gas.
I like not having to worry about gas leaks, explosions, ect.
It seems like every year in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex
I hear about a house that exploded because shifting soil created a leak under a house.
The person comes home, flicks on the light switch and boom.

[Tim(Guest)]

Bob

I've NG in my home in North Texas. We had some serious damage due to a sewer line leak under the house. I never had any problems with the Gas Lines. That said, I would go with gas for heat and DHW. However, if I was building a new home I would have the furnace & Hot Water Heater located on the out side of the home contained in a well insulated structure. Then have the feeds and ducts run through a wall. You could have a a vent from the out side to provide combustion air.

BTW if you decide on gas for heating don't forget a C0² dectector.

Just my 2 cents.

[bartholomew]

On-demand water heaters are available in electric and propane. The electric ones have a hefty power draw so require a correspondingly hefty electrical service.

A tank of propane does allow you to endure a power outage in relative warmth and comfort provided you either chose appliances that don't require any electricity to run or you have a generator to power any required fans and ignition.

[Billy Bob]

Bob, unless you are generating your own electric power I think the cost of operation is still in favor of propane in most areas. Since the vote is already tallied on the cooking front, sounds like simplest is bestest.
I have lived with "gravity" direct vent furnaces, and found them tolerable, especially in power outages.
Also had one apartment with a tankless propane water heater, which did the job  fine, never ran out of hot water in the shower, and also was on line when the power was out.
Regarding gas safety, I think problems are not that common in proper installations. Saw the "This Old House" guys the other day using a stainless flex system for all the gas connections; seems a good way to avoid cracks/leaks at critical points.

[keyholefarmhouse]

I don't think "on demand," or tankless in the electric version works worth a crap.  They tried putting them in the bathrooms at work.  Went through three different ones before getting one that gets the water luke warm.

I'd love to hear the prpane version is a different story.

Take note of what Tim said about installing outside of building in a seperate vented mechanical room.

Also, some people need to consider power outages.

[MikeT]

I am still in the planning stages with my beach house on the Oregon Coast (Victoria's Cottage with a basement below-- 1400 sf).  Because this will primarily be used as a weekend/vacation property, I have tentatively decided on electric baseboard heat and an electric stove.

For my uses I am thinking that even if I were to go with a propane stove (which I am not), I would use electric baseboard for zone heating with a wood stove as additional heat.

For hot water, I am looking at the Marathon electric hot water heaters.  If their propaganda is true, they would appear to be good options in the electric market.  I have not been impressed with the On Demand Water Heaters powered by electricity.  

That is how I am approaching things, for what it's worth.

[rdzone]

I will put in my two cents.  I think the propane on demand hot water heaters are great.  A friend of mine has one in his remote cabin.  I works great.  He never has a problem with the hot water supply.  I think he has a bosch, but I am not sure.  It runs just fine on large propane bottles we tow out using our snowmachines.   Even after both our wives are done taking showers there is still hot water, unlike a conventional hot water tank.  

[Amanda_931]

Grid electricity goes out here fairly frequently.  From just long enough to cause the microwave oven display to flash to "midnight to 4:00AM  for system maintenance."  Had friends in a major residential area of Nashville whose electricity didn't come back on for weeks after a major ice storm (I lived between a substation and a hospital at the time, got mine back in about 24 hours).  I'd hate to have a weekend/vacation house where systems would not start up after a power outage, and, say, the toilets froze..

That said, some friends here think that for the long run, electricity can exist somehow (their house, but not the wood shop, is off the grid) while fifteen or twenty years from now propane and natural gas may be in very short supply.  Biogas/woodgas may not be widely available/proven/affordable technology by then.

You pays your money and takes your choice.  I even knew someone who thought that her electric demand water heater was wonderful, her utility bills went down 15-20%.

Solar, augmented either by a demand or a tank, makes really good sense for heating water if you have the site for it.  Not where I'm sitting.

But I'd much rather cook on gas.

[keyholefarmhouse]

I read something John wrote about on demand propne for baseboard heat.  Sounded real interesting.  Was wondering what kind of initial cost this would be to use for the loft area and maybe a bathroom.

I think my wife could put a pretty good hit on a 300 gallon tank of propane.  She likes long hot showers.  I would need an auto shut off valve no one knows about.  I might have to go with 30# felt under the the bathroom paint to warrent as an extra vapor barrier.  Then maybe a floor drain to catch the condensation and a seperate greywater system for the bathroom.

Do you reckon BatGirl takes long hot showers?

[Jochen]

I have ordered an electric Tankless water heater made by Stiebel Eltron for my cottage.

http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com

I know that these units draw a lot of power, but I have a 200amp electrical service, so that is not a problem. I know these units now for more then 40 years from my own experience, back when I was living in Germany. You won't find there anything else then a Tankless system.  

I have opted for electricity so I must not install a propane tank. I'm heating with wood so there was no need for a third energy source. Otherwise I would have choosen a Bosch propane Tankless water heater.

Jochen  

[glenn kangiser]

At my place Batgirl could take as long a hot shower as she needed to get all the various parts of 1200 mosquitos she'd had for dinner washed off those shiny little vinyl Batwings.  The shower is of course in the Batroom.

We are using the Bosch 125HX automatic generator ignition propane tankless heater.  No electric wiring of any kind required.  It will keep up with a major and minor fixture at one time -no problem - is flow compensating - no need for clear on-- and temp is adjustable on the maximum -works best used at the lowest satisfactory setting to prevent scale.  We are totally happy with it.

It requires a 6" vent and a bit lower gas pressure above 2000 or 2500 feet elevation.  Can't remember exactly but no problems.

[keyholefarmhouse]

Would a system like this be practical for heating The VC with a full basement?  

In the great room a Napolean type Propane Stove.

Hydronic radiators supplied by a tankless LP heater for the basement, bathroom, and lofts.

Then; can one tankless heater supply your domestic hot water at the same time?

Is this asking to much?  Is it cost comparable to other systems?  I'm I crazy?  Do I really have to go with a forced air system. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

[Jochen]

I personally would never install a forced air system! Nothing beats the comfort of a radiant heating system.

I'm not sure if the LP Tankless Heaters available in North America can do the job of heating your rooms and providing at the same time hot water. I had such a system when I was living in Germany and it worked great!!!! Mine was made by Vailant, but Bosch is also pretty common in Germany. Google for these systems and you will see and can compare if the local available system will do the job. You will need a system which will have an enclosed circuit (for heating) and an open one for hot water.

I would also install a wood stove for the great room. I love the smell of wood and it is nice as a backup when you have no power during winter.

Jochen

[spinnm]

If the answer is "no" why must you go with forced air?

Think that there are tankless that will run HWH, but you have to do research, which I have not yet done.  Something about the thermostats and the call for heat.  I've been reading a little, not enuf.  There's one, starts with a T, sounds Japanese that supposedly will do it.

Now, will one do that and supply DHW at the same time?  Dunno....but sounds like it might be asking too much.  Something wrong with two?  Or a propane boiler + tankless?  Or, one of the mainstream combo units made by the boiler mfgs?

Don't know about you, but I'd go to a lot of trouble to avoid forced air.

[Jochen]

Keyholefarmhouse
I just googled and found the following link. http://www.viessmann.us/web/canada/ca_publish.nsf/Content/Vitodens200_ca_english

Viesmann is also a German company and has a lot of experience with these kind of heating system. Again, these system are very, very common in Germany and Europe. Nobody installs there a forced air system.

Hope that helps.
Jochen

[Daddymem]

Not too long ago we found ourselves in a similar situation.  We need a construction loan to complete our house while we still live in our current home and banks did not want to hear woodstove was our heat source, same with pellet stoves.  We looked into Euro style radiators and forced hot water heat.  We looked at forced hot air.  We looked into geothermal.  We looked into electric baseboard.  Wow!  All expensive options.  We finally settled on and convinced the Town and Bank that we would be installing a propane fired, direct vent, Rinnai whole house heater (key phrase to use).  We worked with a local propane company and will be getting the Rinnai installed for $2000; the tanks, first fill up and a hot water heater are free with this installation as long as we sign up for 5 years of delivery with this company.  The guy even told us to wait until summer to sign up so we lock in a lower price for our contract.  Maybe you can find a similar deal.

Yes there are propane tankless heaters. There are also many radiant heat and hot water heater combo units out there.

[JRR]

Amanda probably remembers the story better than I.

Last winter, just outside Chattanooga on the east side, a DIY homebuilder woke up and went outside for a early morning smoke.  A smoking habit can kill ya, but in this case it may have saved this person.

As he turned to go back in the gas filled (nearly completely built) house self-destructed.  The fella had singed eyebrows and a sudden toilet urge ... but other than that ... and having a house suddenly distributed about the neighborhood ... was OK.

I sure miss seeing that house going up as I occasionally drove by.

[bil2054]

Yarr! What JRR said!
This is one area best left to a pro, unless you REALLY know what you are doing, QED.
Just using the wrong sealant on a joint can cause similar adventures.  My anecdote doesn't concern propane, but  the situation was analagous:
I was welding a freight elevator fitting,alone, in the lower hold of a recently refitted reefer ship, ( check that alliteration!), when things suddenly started to "go away". I managed to reach up and hit the button on the lift before passing out.  Seems somebody put the wrong type seal in the refrigerant return pump.  The seal failed, and the hold was filling up with freon.  Aboard the same vessel I had a small misadventure with a bottle of chlorine gas.  We also had an impromptu demonstration of what happens when the valve gets knocked off a CO2 bottle,( looked much like a torpedo skittering across the harbor.) I am VERY suspicious about any gas like substance these days, and urge similar caution to others.

[Okie_Bob]

Wow, what a lively discussion! Thanks to everyone for your comments, I do appreciate all the input.

Having grown up in Oklahoma and worked in the 'oil field' a good long time, I am surprised at all the
'fear' of using propane or natural gas. Yes, there are the occasional accidents but, I suspect they are
a very small percentage of the millions of homes using propane or natural gas. Safety is certainly a concern
but, will not deter me from using propane as a heat source. If I had natural gas, that would be my first choice only from a convenience standpoint. Well, maybe economical too. I really don't see propane being any more dangerous than using electricity. I'll bet there are more accidents with electricity than any other heat source.

Another issue comes up as a result of your commets. How do you plan to cool your places if you don't use some kind of forced air system? Window units are the only reasonable thing that comes to mind...if they are considered forced air. Here in my little piece of heaven, cooling is more of a concern than heat! As an example, on March 1 or this year, only three days ago, we set a new 113 year old record of officially 94 degrees!! We turned the old thermostat to 'cool' and left it there util yesterday.
My plan is to install a forced air system for heating and cooling. Electric cooling and propane heating and now plan to use a propane on demand tankless hot water system. We have several propane companies that will provide serivce and I intend to get bids from several. From a safety standpoint, I just don't see a problem.
We will also have a propane fireplace to supplement the forced air system but, it would never replace it.  Our house will be almost competely shaded preventing solar as an option and I'm not allowed to use a geo thermal system in the area I'm building. Wind is not an option either, as much as I'd love to try that.

Okie Bob

[keyholefarmhouse]

This is he worst part about not having forced air.  This is also the worst part about where we live.  It can easily get to -20F, and eaisily up to 105F.  You pay to cover all conditions.  Yet, we love four seasons.

So, basement should stay cool on its own.
I'm going to try a "new" swamp cooler.
Open windows at night.  It cools off here at night.  For the most part.
Put bamboo or some type covering on out side of windows that get direct sun.


Can you cover skylights with white canvas coverings?

I figure a guy can always put in a window unit somewhere.

During July and August a Bat cave would be perfect.

[glenn-k]

Keyhole, it is really obvious that Batgirl has helped to show you the light.  Look at the ideas she has given you.

Okie BoB ---- see why I had you nail that reminder to your forehead?  Your input is brilliant.  I also worked in the oil field a few years off and on - I only had one man blown out of a cellar when he cut a casing head loose and the lease operator hadn't purged the gas from the casing.  It didn't seriously damage him - turned the outside layer of skin on his face black for a week -- after that he looked real nice.  Heck -- women pay for chemical treatments to do just that.  Look at Kath and Kim.  Noice.  (Aussie comedy pair-noice=nice in Melbourne Austrailian)

I agree, BoB - done properly propane is safe - if you can screw two pipes together tight with pipe wrenches - use a leak detector such as soapy water, and perform a pressure test - I usually do 24 hours - propane is safe.  It has a garlic smell added to help locate leaks.  It cannot explode in the tank -no oxygen. Thousands -perhaps millions of propane tanks are filled daily without incident even though some propane escapes to atmosphere with the potential of a fire.  It just doesn't normally happen and usually there is only a small area where it will ignite-- the rest is too rich or too weak.  I use a propane flame thrower to heat large steel weld areas.  Even put the tank close enough to melt the ice that forms as the propane was used-- as it gets cold from propane evaporating inside the tank ice forms on the outside and pressure drops to an unusable amount.  In case of a small leak in the open air with me watching, a flame may start at the leak but could be put out by turning off the valve, with a glove or rag or possibly blowing it out.  

The bad situation arises when a leak occurs unnoticed - builds up in a air space such as a basement or crawlspace then reaches a source of ignition.  Snow sliding off a roof could break a line -gas could go under the snow and fill a basement.  A solution could be to keep the tank farther away.  You only hear about the ones that explode.   The millions and millions in use that don't have a problem don't make the news.

Illicit drug labs in basements also use propane and explode on a more regular basis than permitted systems.  I don't percieve this as being a problem as these people should be removed from the gene pool anyway.  No --I don't feel sorry for them or care how they got to where they are.

[Amanda_931]

More reasons for not having gas.

Need to have--and use-a range hood that exhausts outdoors.  For the same reason that one really wants vented heaters.

If you are very chemically sensitive you may not be able to tolerate whatever the products of not quite complete combustions are--or possibly the "gas" smell.

May need to wash the walls more frequently.  (if you wash them at all)

I'd still rather cook on a gas burner.  Maybe not in a gas oven.

[glenn-k]

More reasons for not having gas.

Amanda, my wife could probably write a book on the above subject, but my reaction would still be the same. :-/

[Okie_Bob]

Keyhole, you are right. Swamp cooler was the only cooling we had when I was a kid. Not sure what you refer to about the 'new' swamp coolers. They are great in dry heat, not worth a flip in more humid environments like here in NE Texas. I recall getting out first swamp cooler when I was about 10 years old. Dad brough home a window type and I would sit in front of it in total amazement at the cold air blowing out of that squirrel cage blower! But, it will rust everything metal in the place! And of course, we don't build basements down here...ever.

Glen, you are a true wonder! Everything you said about propane is right on. Pipe wrenches and soapy water is he only way to know you are safe. But, I had no idea you were an 'oily' as well!!!! Reminds me that my momma would tell her friends that I was a piano player in a house of ill repute!! She didn't want them to know I worked in the oil patch!!! My second favorite bumper sticker from the 70's. First was 'if you don't have an oil well, get one...you'll love doing business with the Western Company' put out by Eddie Childs, former CEO of the Western company and later owner of the Tx Rangers baseball club.

And Amanda, lots of people cook with propane down here without a vent hood and I've never heard of anyone having a problem. And I'm with you on electric ovens, what we plan to use. Only propane useage will be stove top cooking, heat from forced air system and starter jet for the fireplace. Pretty much the standard for this part of the world.

Okie Bob...still healing from the nail Glen had me put in my forehead!