Home inside a home, or world's most expensive siding?

[FrankInWI]

Folks... could you help a friend keep his boss happy?  She and her husband live in Wash DC and have land in West Virginia.  They are coming to northern Wisconsin to check out a log home they are particularly attracked to from seeing it at a log home show out east.  She knows I have an interest in country get-aways, and she asked my opinion on their product...and also if I knew anything about the company.  I am not that attrackted to log homes, but many are. 
When I checked the site out I note that the house is apparantly built very conventioinaly (2X6 insulated walls) then wrapped in the worlds most expensive siding in my opinion.  I'm also not impressed with some parts of the conventional shell.... you?
That said.... it certainly would get them the feel of a log home, but without some of the inherent problems of standard log homes. 

Could some of you folks share your thoughts on this please? 

http://www.tomahawklog.com/Construction/index.cfm

[Don_P]

While they are there have them swing by Wilderness Log Homes, Plymouth and Wisconsin Log Homes, Green Bay. Yeah I know, but it's not that far. While they're driving across, I haven't had my cider donut fix this year. Expedition is up there too I believe, they spun off of Wilderness and some good folks went with them. I've heard both ways about Tomahawk but have no personal experience and it's been years. White pine stays put better than red, some companies use one or the other, some mix.

I've built for the 2 W's several times. Yes it is expensive siding but IMO is a superior way to build a log home for a couple of reasons. It provides adequate insulation, it avoids the settlement issues, if there is a log problem it is MUCH easier to replace siding over structure than structural logs. I did a couple with foam over the frame and prefer a fully sheathed frame myself but by the time it is done it is plenty stout either way. Wood sheathing allows me to put screws from anywhere into the log siding from the backside to really knit it all together and pull things snug. It is easier for subs to wrap their heads around a conventionally framed house.
These are some poor quality pics of a few different corner styles I had online.
This is a Wilderness notch and pass;

This is a Wilderness with vertical log corners;

This is a Wisconsin with saddle notched corners


Over on this side of the world Tim Bullock is building Appalachian saddle notched full log homes from his yard in Jane Lew, WV. Turman Log and Timber Homes does kiln dried milled full log and CNC timberframe homes from their facilities near Hillsville, VA

[Redoverfarm]

Frank if they are really into log homes there are the traditional log homes.  This guy (Mark Bowe)is about 20 miles south of me.  He will custom cut via blueprints of your design.  He has done some really great pieces and alot of restoration.   

http://www.antiquecabinsandbarns.com/

Here are some of his gallery places

http://www.antiquecabinsandbarns.com/photogallery.aspx

Don I wasn't aware of Bullocks buisness in Jane Lew.  It is about 20 miles souoth of Charksburg on I-79.

[MountainDon]

I've never worked with any kind of log homes. I have admired them though. As Don_P points out there are some advantages to this method. Unless one is a log purist I believe this would be the way to go. One must have deep pockets or most any log home; some require deeper than others.

At the same time I like the looks of John's real old tyme log home.

[Tim Bullock]

Frank, You said: "but without some of the inherent problems of standard log homes.  "......What inherent problems?? I have been building "problem free" Handcrafted Log Homes for the past 31 years but continue to hear this "myth"......Please post here and let me know what I have been missing in my construction techniques for the past 31 years.

[Tim Bullock]

Don P, You said: "Appalachian saddle notched full log homes".......I don't even know what that term means......We do dovetail log homes and we do round saddle notched log homes.....Log Siding is NOT a log home no matter how you cut the pie.....It is one form of "siding" over a stick frame.....No more...No less.
Drop by some day and I will be glad to show you what a real log home looks like.....UP with logs.....Tim Bullock
www.tamaracklogandtimberhomes.com

[MountainDon]

Tim,  aboard.

Regarding inherent problems with log buildings. It is my understanding that all log building walls eventually "settle" a little as the logs dry and shrink in circumference. That requires techniques not used in conventional stick construction. Would that not be an inherent problem?


Then there is the question of cost. Not all of us have readily harvestable logs on our property, nor the equipment to handle the logs. Paying someone to do all that increases the costs to where log buildings are not affordable for many.

[John Raabe]

As Don mentions, the first "inherent problem" of standard (stacked) log homes is shrinkage. This is not a problem in small buildings, but adds up in tall structures. Good log builders have ways of dealing with this (ie: stairs are on screw jacks to adjust to changing floor to floor heights) but wood shrinks more in radius than it does in length and stacked walls get shorter as this happens.

Some architects use vertical or stockade logs for large structures - the Steve Balmer (Microsoft) house on Whidbey island uses this technique. (I had to get it to meet energy code.)

Speaking to that, the second issue is energy efficiency. Wood is about R-1 per inch. Even though the log wall has some thermal mass characteristics, this fact of physics means you can expect to pay more for energy in a solid wood walled building. To match the R-value of a 2x6 framed wall you would need to build a wood wall about 16"-18" thick. To meet energy code issues you have to trade off state of the art windows and other expensive tricks. Not a problem when you are CEO of Microsoft or some of the other wealthy client houses I have worked on.

At any rate, log house construction is usually not a cost-effectiveness choice but a lifestyle or image choice.

[Tim Bullock]

Don, Yes log homes do shrink in height but I fail to see this as
an inherent problem....wood sided homes require maintnenance...Is that an inherent problem with wood sided homes?  The industry is suffering during this downturn and it is a diservice to builders to have someone such as yourself identify log shrinkage as an "inherent problem".......noone likes to consider buying any home with the word "problem" attached to it.

[Tim Bullock]

John, I have never seen any R-Value ascribed to EWP as being 1/inch. The numbers that I have seen (reliable sources) vary from 1.25-1.50 plus there is the benefit of thermal mass which is a whole other topic. I have seen published numbers that a 6" thick solid pine wall has an R-Value of 20 considering both factors. Despite that research, I do not believe the numbers are quite that high. We use average diameter logs of 16" yielding a whopping R-20-R24 depending on which value you use.....this is straight thermal resistivity. Ballmer could've gotten local logs that big or bigger but the architects simply chose a different method. I would challenge you on the 2" X 6" wall being R20....the fibreglass insulation is R20 whereas the studs themselves are only R9 at best. Cost....YES.....It is true if you have a craftsman/tradesperson do anything it will invariably cost more than DIY....However, Last year we invited a prospect to come to our site for two weeks, we trained him, fitted logs together and just last month shipped the raw logs to finish the project himself.......that is not for everyone but he did save an awful lot of money.

[Squirl]

I was looking at a log home for my DIY project.  It was appealing to me because I saw a project in Alaska that looked good and the alone in the wilderness show on PBS.  There were just too many problems that changed my mind.  Yes stick frame houses require maintenance, but log homes, required much more.  I could build a stick frame house and side it with stucco and go maintenance free for years or with vinyl and the same.  I checked the websites of many log cabin owners and they said they need to treat the logs every 5-10 years.  Also although many make promises that the logs won't shrink unevenly, they do, and every other year a person could be spending time chinking.  Also in areas that go by code enforcement (not WV) finding land with logs large enough to meet R value requirements to build with was impossible.  And to buy them cost an astronomical amount more than almost every singe other form of construction I found. 

In all my research of looking into a DIY homes (stone, stick, sip, straw, log, concrete, rammed earth, cord wood), Log was the least practical solution I found. It was one of the most beautiful though.

How can a 6" thick pine log have an R-value of 20 and a 6" thick pine board have an R-value of 9?  Same thickness, same material.

[Squirl]

Don, Yes log homes do shrink in height but I fail to see this as
an inherent problem....wood sided homes require maintnenance...Is that an inherent problem with wood sided homes?  The industry is suffering during this downturn and it is a diservice to builders to have someone such as yourself identify log shrinkage as an "inherent problem".......noone likes to consider buying any home with the word "problem" attached to it.

I have come here for years for advice and the pros and cons of any type of building method I can think of.  As a non building professional, I have found Don's take of a negative aspect of a type of a type of construction a great service to people in my position.  I am sorry if you feel this is a disservice to you.

[MountainDon]

.... it is a diservice to builders to have someone such as yourself identify log shrinkage as an "inherent problem".......

Well Tim, with the primary purpose of Country Plans Forum being education I must disagree. I have read in many places, even the Wall Street Journal, of people who didn't know enough to ask the right questions. Some of these people had problems with windows and doors as the logs dried and shrank. Granted, those problems do not arise with every log building. When the designer, builder-contractor takes proper steps those problems do not cause difficulties. However, not all suppliers of log buildings, many as kits, may have taken all that into proper consideration. It's an unfortunate fact of life that there are people who either do not do quality work or who take shortcuts in design and construction. That can and does occur with any type of construction.


Therefore I maintain that it is a service to potential buyers to become fully educated, so they can ask the probing questions before they lay down their hard cash. We do the same when asked about metal chimneys for wood stoves, how to pour a concrete footing, etc.

[Tim Bullock]

squrl, YES, You could use other methods of construction and have less maintenance than a log or wood sided home.....I don't buy your argument that this is the most expensive method for the DIY...There are many people that take Handcrafted Log Home Construction courses and proceed to build their homes....your take on the cost of raw logs is simply wrong.....you just don't know what to order nor where to buy them......the reason most people don't build their own log home is simply because it is a lot of hard work.........uneven settling......not sure where you got that ditty from....Handcrafted Log Homes use full length logs joined at the corners and along their length....these full length logs act as a compression ring forcing everything to settle evenly....BTW, We do build the "chinkless method" of construction which is insulated with non-toxic sheeps wool.......no chinking at all. Stains have come a long way (not a place to be cheap), 1-2 coats of pigment and topcoat with Clear UV....once the UV starts to degrade, simply wash off dirt and apply a new coat...north facing walls may not need recoating for 10 years or more....that is the beauty of this system...you do not have to reapply ALL of the logs ALL of the time....just areas needing it.

[Tim Bullock]

Don, I will agree to disagree from my original post......you said it best in your last post: "That can happen and does occur with any type of construction" ergo ALL construction has "Inherent Problems"? Yes, It is important for people to ask the right questions in ANY type of construction and not just log. I have been doing this for 31 years and encourage people to ask questions and freely offer advice on two other forums as there are just too many "myths" that abound on the interent and I am trying to educate and inspire people to build log homes. Whether a DIY, kit log home or Handcrafted there are basic rules to be followed.....majority do not giving everyone in this industry a bad name.....Years ago I was an "expert witness" on several different cases and you are quite right......educate.......you would not believe the sorry state of affairs out there....I quit doing this work as I saw too much heartache and broken dreams.

[Squirl]

I guess as a non-professional it is hard for me to be an expert on purchasing logs for a log home.   

Also I did not say it was the most expensive I found.  In my calculations it was probably a close tie between a log and a field stone house in terms of cost.  I said it was the least practical in my findings.  After I added in the lower fire rating, lower insurance rate, lower maintenance, and massive longevity of a stone house, for around the same cost,  I decided a Log home was the least practical.  I don't have a vested interest in selling anyone either method.  I hope you don't find this a disservice to you.

[Don_P]

Hi Tim,
dr. here,
Sorry, didn't mean to misrepresent your method. This is what I refer to as an "Appalachian Saddle Notch". I thought you had mentioned it at one time, must have been someone else.


Frank, your friends would do well to meet with Tim in their search, close to home and can you tell, passionate about his work 

[John Raabe]

• Here is an earlier thread on Vertical (stockade) style log construction in our forum: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2270.0
• Here is a comparison of the general R-values of different materials: http://homeimprovementtopics.com/13/r-value-of-brick-wood-fiberglass-and-other-materials
• And, finally, for anyone who STILL wants to revisit this whole log pros and cons argument... here is the discussion on JLC: http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33744

Personally I think good houses can be built many different ways, log construction being one of them. And in architecture and home building in general there is almost nothing that can't be done if you throw enough money at it.  

However, for a cost-effective, energy-efficient house that maximizes the input of a hard working owner, you can't beat stick framed standard construction - a system that was perfected for handy but otherwise untrained farmers over 150 years ago. This system makes even more sense today as we try to get the most effective use of our renewable resources (such as trees).

[fishing_guy]

Alan,

Welcome to the forum.  Just a couple of things before you rub people the wrong way...

1.  Referring to homes/cabins/etc as "doghouses" or "sheds" won't win you any style points on this board. 
2.  Peruse the forum a bit and you'll see that this site is geared to small(er) homes.  A good bit of these are vacation getaways and almost all are owner built.  Get a sense of what people are accomplishing before you start in on them.
3,  No one is saying that Tim doesn't do beautiful work.  Log cabins in general are beautiful structures.  Tim's more so than most.
4.  For the most part Log homes are beyond the scope of MOST owner/builders.  A pro is needed to get things right.

Personally, My wife and I purchased 13.5 partially wooded acres in northern Minnesota 4 years ago.  Our reasons were that we wanted a getaway where we could escape the rat race of the city.  Strictly a seasonal thing.  I don't like -30F or colder temps.  So we don't go when it gets that cold.
We currently have 3 campers on the property.  A 25' sleepover cab, a 36 ft with a slide out and a 15' 1975 Jaco.  They all have heat, and we have a generator for power.

Will we build someday?  Probably a self-built smaller house.  Maybe a bigger pole barn for storage.  But we are keeping it simple so we don't have the headaches of a second home.  Taxes are another issue.  We currently pay $136/year in property taxes.  It has gone up from $80 since we bought it.  If we put up a small cabin type the taxes will jump to $1500.  A log cabin(or other larger home) would jump it to $3000 +.  For a seasonal getaway, we are not willing to take on that expense. 

We are 20 miles from Lake Vermillion and 30 miles from Ely(Boundary Waters).  If we want to see log homes, all we have to do is take a drive.  For our needs, a "shed" would do just fine.

[Squirl]

I believe the reason more people don't build out of logs is plainly because it is much more difficult

This is one point I agree with. Most people do not have enough skills to build a quality log home. Most anyone can build a stick frame home, they use unskilled labor in California to do that type of work.

If you read through my prior posts, I did not make this quote.  Ever.  I do not appreciate people ascribing words to me that I did not write.  Although you answer seem like a resounding endorsement for first time owner builders to build a stick frame house and not even attempt a log house.

I am amazed at how knowledgeable you are on Tim's work.  I have followed the work of people on this forum, but not to the level of knowing which cuts they usually make over a career.  You even seem to have known a good advertising link for Tim in addition to his.

I also think you misread almost every post.  I don't think anyone compared Tim's work to anything.  But since comparisons were made, I don't think it is fair to call anyone's hard work less than what they call it.  Don's cabin is a fine example of construction.  It better than many houses I have seen built.

[pagan]

I don't know, but it seams like Tim and Alan are the same person. Or just two guys who are really defensive about their building methods. Personally, I love log cabins and I even know a guy up here who mills and builds them in the Appalachian style and he does very nice work. But having been in the insulation trade for a few years I think stick built homes are easier to insulate and air seal if you're looking at going for something super insulated and air sealed. Just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

[John Raabe]

Alan:

If you are here to post photos of log homes and promote a builder/supplier, then that will be considered advertising and we ban such members.

Understand that this is a forum that supports small home builders and owner builders. We are not trying to be a glossy forum for "parade of homes" promotions. This forum is about small home builders and designers empowering others who want to do the same.

[RainDog]

I'm sorry, I don't like to use "cabin" when I can help it, since the connotation does derive from the days of slavery. Most of us are familiar with Abe Lincoln growing up in a "log cabin", studying by candle light. The connotation is that poor and deprived people lived in those structures and that even those people can make something of themselves. More so, since Lincoln was the one who freed the slaves, this associations ties in with the slaves as well.

Oh my God. I had to call in my wife to see that! Talk about political correctness out of control!

Anyway, needed the laugh. Good one.

[Squirl]

I believe the reason more people don't build out of logs is plainly because it is much more difficult

This is one point I agree with. Most people do not have enough skills to build a quality log home. Most anyone can build a stick frame home, they use unskilled labor in California to do that type of work.

4.  For the most part Log homes are beyond the scope of MOST owner/builders.  A pro is needed to get things right.

For the most part this could be said for stick frame homes also. The part that is beyond most people is the design and structural engineering. This is often specific for a given area, and being able to come up with a design/plan that meets the approval of a structural engineer is beyond the scope of most people. In your case you don't need a stamp, but many areas do.

Is you opinion that a pro is needed to build a stick frame house or not.  

[muldoon]

I'm a software engineer that has been out of work for about a year.

I can't imagine why.