Water

[wildbil]

Since this seems to be the biggest hurdle of an off grid home, I thought I'd start a fresh topic. I would like to know what everyone does for water? I'd also like to here any ideas you made have ever thought of doing.

I really would like to have running water but I dont want a power hunger pump eating all the power. I also would like something simple, but I'm flexible. I encourage ideas with handpumps too.

[rwanders]

12V RV pumps actually use very little power. If you mean to stay off the grid, a small water tank and an RV pump will do it for you for almost all essential needs. You will need someway to charge batteries----solar or wind---a pelton wheel if you have an adequate source of running water,

[cordwood]

 It really depends on the climate and your land topography. Growing up in the desert we had a 1,000 gallon galvanized storage tank that was on a hill with the outlet about 20' higher than the height of the shower head, The pressure was not going to rip skin off but it would rinse the soap off and somehow we all got used to it.
The major problem was that we had to haul the water from a hydrant 5 miles away (our land taxes had a water standby fee that was supposed to be covering it but I think everyone around there was stealing it ) we parked our pickup above the tank and 300 gallons at a time gravity filled the storage tank. I learned how to drive the truck at twelve because I didn't want to go to school smelling like the farm. If you got a leak during the night you had to do a water run before any thing else was done and with rabbits, chickens, pigs and, a couple of steers you had to make sure they had water first and foremost.
After we got a well it still wasn't perfect, Pumping it was always a new problem. Run the generator to run the jet pump for 30 minutes then the well had to recuperate for 2 hours. 12 volt rv pumps wouldn't pull out of the well or take the head pressure to push up to the storage tank. We got a windmill and it would pump water everywhere, I mean EVERYWHERE! In the afternoons the winds always picked up but if the Santa Anas came up while no one was around to turn the tail on the windmill it would pump like crazy till something broke! Usually the jarring would break the pipe at the elbow from the well stem then blade loss would usually follow. If sand got in the pump! Again NO WATER till you either repacked it or sometimes it would be a small rock or stick in the footvalve. We never had a shortage of wind but in the summer the water table would drop and we had to haul water to keep up with the animals.
Freezing was not a problem but heat was. Stored water plus heat meant algae would grow in the tank. Once a year we would drain, clean and recoat the inside of the tank to keep the rust at bay and during 100 degree weather we would put a gallon of bleach a week in the tank to cut down on algae growth. We finally got a fiberglass tank so there was no rust but the algae was ten times worse
Farther East like we are now in Arkansas most of those problems wouldn't be a problem. The well problems we have had out here have been mostly freezing pipes and if the well hits a sulfur pocket (Gross rotten egg smell ) but I have found that if you pump sulfur water into a storage tank where it can rest a lot of the sulfur gas smell goes away.
Before I would even consider a hand pump I would measure how much water you use now and even if you cut it in half try pumping one days worth  . A family can go through a lot of water in a day! You don't really realize how much till you are the guy who has to make sure it's there for them.
I doubt that is much help to you but that is just a few of the things I have run into living without city water.

[n74tg]

Interesting story Cordwood ... where are you in Arkansas?

[cordwood]

Interesting story Cordwood ... where are you in Arkansas?

Dennard, 6 miles off hwy 65. On city water and under a boil order AGAIN!!!! The luck I have with water ain't the kind you take to Vegas

[John_C]

Unless you have to "lift" the water quite a bit, a pump won't be a major energy hog. 

I have a well in my current house and a normal pressure tank. 

I had a cistern in my FL house and my sole source of water was rainwater gathered off the roof.  I lived on a boat for 9 years and had hand & foot pumps to supply water from the on board tank.

I wish Jonesey was still active one the forum.  For those who don't know him he lives in Australia , aka OZ to some.  His only water supply was a cistern, but he lived in an area of very little annual rainfall.  He could teach us all something about conservation.  Most of the places I've lived have had abundant rainfall by most standards.  Here in GA average annual rainfall is in the 50- 60 inches per year range.  I think Jonesey might have 5!

I've always found it interesting that cisterns and gathering rainfall are the common system in really dry areas.  In the outback it is by far the most common solution and < 20" per year is quite normal.   Most of those house are way off grid and water pressure is provide by a variety of means, solar powered pumps being most common.

[wildbil]

I should have elaborated to say I am from michigan. Most of the land around us is pretty flat, and the water table is pretty high in most places around me. I looked up cisterns and cant believe how much a good size one will cost. as of right now the biggest I'd be willing to get would be 2000 gallon. Keep in mind that I wont have all the water wasting appliances that are normal in a house(non electrice washing machine, hand wash dishes, compost toilet, minimal; shower setup). I feel with the simplified basics of water usage at our new home we will be going through 75-100 gallons a day, quite a set in the right direction for conservation.

Before you ask why I'm being careful in michigan, the most freshwater on earth surrounding us, I can tell you our lakes are really down, large cities around here and canada are big polluters, and other states are begging for us to pipe it to them. I thought I'd start doing my part to take a load off of my beautiful lakes.

[glenn kangiser]

cordwood, if you spray the water into the storage tank it may help dissipate the Hydrogen Sulfide even faster.  Just getting it unpressurized is a great help though.

[cordwood]

cordwood, if you spray the water into the storage tank it may help dissipate the Hydrogen Sulfide even faster.  Just getting it unpressurized is a great help though.

Yes; Aeration helps the most but just getting it to the surface and giving it a day or so (keeping a storage tank over 70%) seems to make it drinkable. A good water softener system helps too but I have never used one personally, Just drank from a neighbor's well who had one. Where we are now seems to be good water so hopefully when we drill it is good clear water, The sulfur water also yellows whites a bit .

wildbil;....www.aermotorwindmill.com/ These guys sell hand pumps too.

[wildbil]

Did anyone drill their own well? how much wattage does an rv pump take? My solar system will be pretty small cause I'm going for a mortgageless motif.

[apaknad]

i lived in a house w/bad sulfer water and i can tell you that it will destroy everything electronic/electric(stereos,computers/refrigerators, etc.). eats metals. the only thing that worked was a hydrogen peroxide injection system. water softener helps. this was abut 29 years ago. they probably have something better now.

[apaknad]

Wbil,

glen is the resident expert on well drilling. i am sure he will chime in soon. good luck.

[glenn kangiser]

Did anyone drill their own well? how much wattage does an rv pump take? My solar system will be pretty small cause I'm going for a mortgageless motif.

I'm actually working a few local jobs - lower pay,  higher hours, but work none the less - so I may not be here as much during the day.

The RV pump is only good for pumping from a maximum of 9 feet from the water level.  Nothing to stop you from dropping it down the well a ways if it is reasonably close to the surface.  2.9 GPM at 0 PSI --off at 50 psi, 12v, 84 watts @ 50 PSI is the one I just installed for the horses. 

While it can't suck more than 9 feet, it can push to 115 feet and have 0 left over. so if you dropped it down 15 feet, you would have 100 feet of head or 43.3 lbs pressure.  This pump is not made for that but you could make it do that.  It is a potable water pump made by Flowjet.  Intermittant duty maybe 15 minutes on before it's heat switch shuts down for about 15 minutes.  There is a model somewhere with a heat sink also to run longer under less heat.  Seems I saw it at Northern Equipment.

There are special solar pumps made for a whole house permanently- pretty to very expensive-  but this is a low cost low volume12v solution.

[glenn kangiser]

There is another source of Hydrogen Sulfide in water - SRB Sulfur Reducing Bacteria, which can also assist Iron Bacteria.  Here is a good reference I found from Minnesota along with a couple of useful links lower on the page.

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/wells/waterquality/hydrosulfide.html

[MountainDon]

Flojet and Shurflo are the big 2 RV water pump manufacturers. They both have websites with all the specs for their pumps available; various volatges, 12 & 24 VDC as well as some in 115 VAC. I've used both brands and they both work. I bought by price. Check prices at online RV dealers like pplmotorhomes.

As Glenn stated RV pumps are really meant more for moving water from here to there with slight elevation change.

[wildbil]

Handpump       Rain catch                                           
     |                   |                                                 
     |                   |                                                   ------------Hot water heater     
      \                 /                                                    |
     2000 gal cistern------------Rv pump----Pressurized tank
                                                                              |
                                                                              ------------Cold water


Hows this sound?

[wildbil]

or...


Well-------Handpump in home----heat pot on stove.

[glenn kangiser]

The hand pump could be a lot of work - depends on the time you have and depth of well, and for drinking with the rain catchment, likely some kind of filter and purification could be in order.  Floating sucker rods could help.. a windmill or surface motor could be added too.  It all depends on what you ultimately find but - good to study options ahead of time.

[wildbil]

I have decided last night that the most reliable and most efficient way to get water to my cabin is this...

handpump        Rain catch                                              ---------Rv type of shower(something basic)?
      |                   |                                                     |
       2000 gallon cistern-----------filters----------handpump(within the home)

This is my thought,

If a person can flip on a tap and water gushes out and they never have to think of it, that will hinder water conservation. If some labor and responsibility is needed to get your water, a person will respect it more and use it wisely. I have no problem using a little muscle for my water, much better time spent than watching TV.

Why should we worry about water conservation?
just look at what T boone pickens is doing right now, he's draining a major aquafier in texas and plans to start exploiting water like they exploited oil. you know how the oil thing turned out. Pretty soon big corporations will start pumping insane amounts of water out of the ground lowering water tables, making it increasingly hard for an individual to get it, and then selling it at a ripoff rates.
 

[MountainDon]

The hand pumps I am familiar with are lift pumps. The ones I've seen always were installed directly above the water source (cistern in the basement on the farm) or well casing.

Therefore I wonder if a hand pump located at the kitchen sink would draw water from a cistern that was not directly under the pump location. .. just a question I don't know the answer to.

[glenn kangiser]

It will as long as the lift is not more than atmospheric pressure will push minus an inefficiency factor so say around 20' of suction lift on a decent pump.

"Ultimate Hand Lift Pump Model Number UPP2 is a positive displacement suction lift pump. They will give good performance on any depth well or pumping application where the suction lift, vertical distance (pumping level) does not exceed 20 feet."

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/waterpumps/ohandppumpinstall.htm

No leaks in the suction line is a must.  A foot valve will keep you from losing prime.

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/handwaterpumpshallow.htm

Deeper water level requires a mechanical means of lifting with the pump down in the well or an electic submersible.

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/handwaterpumpdeep.htm

Above links presented as example only - I don't know the company presenting the information as part of their site.  I see that their solar pumps have been removed from their catalog.

Some Dankoff Solar info

http://www.advancedenergysolution.com/catalog/water/Dankoff%20SunRise%20Solar%20Submersible%20Pumps%20-%20Water%20Pumping.htm

[tc-vt]

I think I remember hearing about the soils in parts of Michigan being good for hand drilling a shallow well and that the water table was very shallow.  This goes back some years and I might be wrong.   In good soils I think you can drive a well point to around 20 feet deep and I believe I read about someone who did it in MI.

Tom

[MountainDon]

Thanks Glenn. Interesting stuff.

Applying the altitude correction (1 ft for every 1000 ft of altitude) I'd have to subtract 9 ft. (20 - 9 = 11 ft) The bottom of my planned cistern will be approx 8 ft below ground level at the tank (11 ft - 8 ft = 3 ft). The counter top height to that ground level is about 5 feet.  Hmmm.

[glenn kangiser]

If it gets to be a problem, you could fake it.  Use rods and levers to move the pump closer to the tank level, or possibly a sucker rod to extend the cylinder down under the sink to about ground level would be enough.

[MountainDon]

Another interesting note is that several of their must have freeze proffing water releases; just lift the handle.