Toilet drain too high

[Ernest_T._Bass]

Hi everybody,

I've got a problem with our toilet drains being too high, due to the necessary slope to our septic system. The top of the 90 degree street elbow that forms my closet bend is about 4-6 inches from the subfloor. I've been trying to brainstorm the situation, but am not sure of the best way to tackle this... We would like to avoid making a step up to a raised floor around the toilet, but perhaps we could install a low-profile toilet and make a small pedestal on our (cob) floor immediately around it, raising it to a more standard height?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated...
Andrew

[NetHog]

Is the building one story or two story? Is it already built?
In UK, there are many houses with an upstairs toilet.
If the house is not already built, raise the house
In Seattle, before the general raising of the city, there were a few raised toilets. Maybe make a raised bathroom into a feature?
Final suggestion from me (if septic system not built yet) change the design of the septic system (see other posts from me) and use a pump septic system. The septic tank can then be lower than the drain field.

[glenn-k]

High toilets are unpleasant.  I'm always afraid of falling off and hitting my forehead. :-/

A variation of your idea, NetHog -- there are basement systems that have a grinder then pump to a higher level - If on grid this could work.  I think you are already past changing some of this aren't you, Andrew?

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http://www.saniflo.com/

[Ernest_T._Bass]

Yes, we already have the house built and septic installed. We do have two floors, but an upstairs toilet is not an option for us...

[peg_688]

Is the ground floor slab on grade ?? Are you sure you have used the shortest, <In height > elbows / 90's every where you could and bottomed those out in the fitting , again to make the fitting as short <in hieght>  as possible ??

 

[Ernest_T._Bass]

Right now, the floor is just gravel. We will be putting in an earthen floor over the summer.

I kept everything as short as possible... We actually have two toilets back-to-back, and both drains join into a double wye. A double sanitary T would have saved height, but I was afraid of the drains conflicting, as the toilets are so close together.

[glenn-k]

Sounds like you may be able to do some replumbing and get them lower.  How about some pictures.  I doubt there will be an interference problem as they will almost never be flushed at the same time -- and a giant bomber plunger should take care of that.

How about changing to closer bends - they come in ABS and can be cut down to where the toilet is almost sitting on the pipe.



Note - I think the example is cast iron - couldn't easily find a plastic pix but similar and shorter.

[Ernest_T._Bass]

Well, the code says that two toilets can't flush back-to-back into a double sanitary T unless they are at least 36'' apart. I'll have to do some measuring... I was more worried about sewer gas getting forced out the opposite toilet when the other flushed than clogging, though.

Do closet bends have a shorter turn radius than a street 90? I didn't see any PVC closet bends available at the (smallish) hardware stores we got most of our plumbing stuff at.

It would be a real pain to dig that all up and replace it... We already have the wall separating the bathrooms framed up, and the vent pipes all plumbed in...  :-/

[glenn-k]

Maybe  -a bit I think- - the above pix is a good example - the toilet fitting slips directly over the outside so no other fittings required to adapt it on.  Maybe your fitting is close to as low as you can go - I think it could be about 2 or 2 1/2 inches above the top of the pipe to finished floor at its closest.

May not be enough savings to help though.

[Ernest_T._Bass]

Well, as it turns out I do have the necessary distance to use a double sanitary T. I'm real bummed about this, as it would be a huge pain to dig up and replace the double wye, not to mention I'd end up wasting a bunch of fittings. But, is this my only option?

On another note... The main drain that the two toilets discharge into is 4''. In hindsight, I would have preferred to have kept it down to a more standard 3'', but the line was installed through the foundation before I became a plumber. Anyway, your stack vent is supposed to be a continuation of the main drain, not reducing in diameter. Now, all of our plumbing is on the first floor, and I can't afford to make 6'' or 8'' walls in the loft to run a vent pipe like that through. I have rationalized that, since I'm not placing a load on the main drain that would exceed a 3'' pipe's capacity, reducing down to a 3'' vent pipe should be ok. Am I off-base in this thinking?

Thanks,
Andrew

[glenn-k]

I was told that the combination of all vents in area had to be the size of the pipe leaving but that individual vents could be smaller.  I don't think you are going to have any problems because of it either.

I don't exactly have it figured out how you have done the plumbing, but I would do what it takes to make it work including dig it out if necessary.  If you can post some pictures of what you have we may be able to figure out something different.  Is your double wye running vertical?  Many of these things can be done horizontally too.  

[Ernest_T._Bass]

Yes, the double wye is vertical. The main 4'' drain line comes through the foundation and heads through the floor directly towards the toilets, then sweeps upwards into the double wye, right between the two. The stack vent comes off the top of the wye, and all the other drains branch horizontally off the main drain. Right now everything is buried, except for the 3'' street 90's sticking up where the toilets go, so a picture wouldn't reveal too much.

I thought I had enough vertical room when I roughed this in, before we filled the place up with gravel, but we didn't end up as high with the floor as I had anticipated...

[glenn-k]

That's OK - I have the picture in my head now.  Good description.  As I said  you have lots of room there as this could be done on the horizontal but that wouldn't eliminate the digging.

[glenn-k]

Lots of room doesn't take into consideration what other fittings may be there either but if the wye was on the horizontal then there would be a lot more room to get up to floor level.

[Ernest_T._Bass]

I just dug it up a little to examine the situation, and I don't even know how I could replace the wye if I wanted too.. I have the wye, going down into a bend, going into a 2''x4'' sweep combo, going into another bend, with no pipe separating the fittings. I'd have to dig way back, cut off the whole thing and do it over. I included a couple pics..

I guess I really goofed, but now I really want to find a workaround...

[glenn-k]

You may not like this real well, but--- I see no way to get the existing ones lowered but how about the area your arrow is in the top picture before the small drain - downstream.  How about cut off and plug the two that are to high - dig out and cut the line below the small line tee and put a double wye laying flat there then use appropriate 45's and a 90  to get the toilet back up to where you want.  From the horizontal line it will be much lower.  You may have to get the rubber connectors with clamps over them to get the wye into the big line without digging it all out -  probably a straight cut stub glued in each end.  This will put it a bit farther from the vent but It should work fine.  

Technically the little line draining into it will wet vent it but there is no way it can cause a problem and somewhere in code there is an exception for it that this may fall under.

[glenn kangiser]

Re-reading I see you said you have another bend after the 2x4 combo.  That probably won't leave any room there.

[tc-vt]

I think you may be able to fix this.  I can't get my hands on my plumbing book, but if I am correctly understanding the setup in your pictures the following may work and be up to acceptable plumbing practices.

It might not be necessary to have your toilet flange enter your stack vertically as you have it.  I think it would be acceptable if you have your closet flange come up from the main drain by redesigninging your layout a bit.  

The changes would start at the point in your main drain right before the smaller drain, ie. on the septic side of that small drain pipe.  Cut it there and put in a 4x4x4 wye if you want to keep your 4 inch closet or a  4x4x3 wye if you want to reduce it to a 3 inch closet.  I have seen a closet flange that fits inside a 4 inch pipe with a rubber gasket and no cementing which may be a reason to keep it at 4 inches.  Angle the wye toward the location of the toilet with a slight elevation.  The other end of the wye continues toward ythe location of your vertical 4 inch vent stack and joins to that stack with a 90.  You can run that small drain directly into the 4 inch stack to dump into it using a wye or sanitary tee as you have the toilet set up now.  Basically it sounds kind of like you will run the toilet drain like the other drain is now and run the other drain like you now have the toilet.

I'll look for my plumbing book to see if this is acceptable.  I think the author is Hemp.  It's a Taunton book which may be in the recommended books list on this site and to which no other book compares for explaning plumbing so concisely.

Just some further thinking.  How have you planned on bolting the toilet to the floor?  Will the cob have good holding power for the toilet bolts or are you going to have to incorporate something with good holding strength like concrete or maybe some pressure treated wood into the cob floor?  

Another thought that may be helpful - When I did my concrete pour around the roughed in pipe I wrapped some cardboard around the pipes to keep the cement away from the pipes.  But, I overdid it a bit with the cardboard and the space between the concrete was so big that I was barely able to get bolts into the concrete.   I have seen slabs poured directly up against the pipes as well sometimes.

Let me know what you think of this and I'll look for my book to see if it helps further.  It has several pictures of different ways to install closet flange drains in different situations.

Tom

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thanks for the ideas. I don't know if it's clear that there's actually two toilets. The (double) wye has another arm that goes into the other bathroom. If only there was just some way to make the drain work the way it is, without digging up a ton of floor...

How much lower do they make low-profile toilets? If we just raised the floor up under the toilet, might it be an acceptable height?

We will be putting wood anchors on either side of the drain to bolt the flange to. Pressure treated might be a good idea, being under a toilet and all..

[tc-vt]

I don't know about low rise toilets.

My idea still may work.  I would use two separate wyes, one after the other on your drain line, one for each toilet so you can pitch each one up to maintain pitch from the toilet to the drain.

It might not have been clear in my other post, but the other small drain line would run to the stack horizontally at its present height (with pitch) through the wall that is between the toilets.

Tom

[glenn kangiser]

If I have you right you are 4 to 6 inches above the finished floor level with the toilet mounting flange? Maybe you will just want to put the toilet on a raised platform if you don't want to rework the pipe.  It could just be a little throne.  I'm sure it's not the first time it's been done.      

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, it would actually be about 3''-4'' from the top of the closet bend pipe to the finished floor. Does the flange protrude any higher than the top of the pipe?

I thought of getting creative with a little "throne", but I don't think we'd have enough room, taking door clearances into account..

From the little research I did, a 16 1/8'' rim height is most common now, though the lower 14 1/4'' height is still not too uncommon. They make toilets as high 17'' and above, so maybe I can get away with a short one...

[bayview]

  I think Glenn was onto the solution.  

- Cut all out, retaining vent.  
- Cut bend out beyond the 2X4 combo.  Replace with a Sewer and Drain Sanitary Tee.  

For "Drain"
- Extend out straight end of Sanitary Tee and reduce to 2".  90 up and relocate drain.

For Toilets
- Lay the Double Wye flat on its side, connect the Double Wye to side of Sewer and Drain Sanitary Tee.  Using 45s and 90s to the toilet flanges.  

For "Vent"
- Connect end of Double Wye to vent using 90 or a Street 90.

[glenn kangiser]

3 to 4 inches top of pipe to finished floor should be doable.  I'd be getting out a sawzall and trimming things to fit.  You should be able to get a flange that will fit flush and even trim the fitting down a bit if you have to.

I just checked the closet bend I have here - a 4x3 - I could put the flange 2 inches above the top of the pipe to the finished floor if I trimmed it with a sawzall.

[glenn kangiser]

Looking at your setup, you could put a 4x3 reducer on the white pipe then a 3x4 closet bend and have plenty of room I think if you don't have enough now.  4 inch comes up under the toilet and can be trimmed to slip a 4" closet flange over it.