Downsides of a POA?

[Jared Drake]

There's a place near my house called Flint Ridge. I'm not sure what it's called...planned community? Anyway, 1 acre lots there sell for 3-6 thousand dollars and they've got a golf course and other amenities. It's huge, I mean massive. (We're talking 7000 acres.) Ok, I found a link that describes it pretty well. http://www.flintcreekrealestate.com/aboutFlintRidge.asp
So, aside from monthly dues and no hunting, what would be the downside to something like this? They have one section for mobile homes in Delaware County, and one section for traditional built homes in Adair County. Got any ideas on what wouldn't be good?
Jared

[glenn kangiser]

The regular government is bad enough without all of your neighbors looking over your shoulder to complain and hassle you for in their own private little government in a POA or HOA.   Some people just can't get enough government. 

That's just my opinion, but I may not be normal....

[John_C]

The regular government is bad enough without all of your neighbors looking over your shoulder to complain and hassle you for in their own private little government

AMEN   

[phalynx]

Don't forget, a POA rarely ever leaves the restrictions alone.  It's usually followed by a few thousand more.  Don't forget about that one lady who is responsible for monitoring the homeowners.  She thinks you looked at her with an evil eye that day when the sun caught your eye.. She'll make sure you are hassled for months with each blade of grass and the trimming done no less than 1/4" from the concrete but no more than 1/2".

I love POA's....... pass.

[glenn kangiser]

....but if you don't get it done they can have it done and assess  or bill you for it....likely...

[i wish we were up north]

I normally don't chime in but I work with 3 guys who are part of POA's & HOA's.  All are in different communities and are decent guys with terrific families.  However, they cannot build a shed for their campers or boats.  They can't leave the campers or boats outside so have to pay to "store" them.  They cannot leave their camper parked in front of their house (for loading) for more than 24 hours (one fella left his out overnight and STILL had a letter from a lawyer in his mailbox when he got back).  The other gets monthly letters about his "grass clippings" left after mowing his lawn.  The third guy is being sued by his neighbor because he planted his trees too close to the property line and the neighbor does NOT LIKE trees.  He wants them all cut down (they are 12' tall).  The harrassment they get is ridiculous. 

All of them agree that they would NEVER be part of that type of community again and have stressed that point to anyone looking for a home. 

I have overheard the phone calls to their lawyers - it's scary that some of these communities have such control. 

[rwanders]

Anecdotal horror stories are easy to find about POA OR HOA but there are many more owners happy about them.  Almost all property comes with some level of deed or covenant restrictions and virtually all are pretty benign. It is vital that you read and understand the rules before you buy into one. I have viewed quite a number of very nice properties only to find a tobacco road operation next door. I really didn't need neighbors that think owning their "propurtee" meant they should feel free to fill it with old sofas, washing machines and junk cars---I actually came from a long line of hillbillies but, even they had more respect than that for their neighbors. If you and your neighbors all live on 40+ acre spreads it probably not matter to anyone----smaller lots mean you need to have some mercy on your neighbors.

[CREATIVE1]

Ask them for a copy of the covenants/restrictions.  Read it, you'll probably be amazed.  Also, some parts of the community might be under slightly different rules.  That's true at Lake Cushman in Washington where I'll be building.  My "division", eastside Dow Mountain, is much less regulated, mostly no farm animals except horses and you have to submit pictures of what you want to build and get permission to chop down trees.  I wanted the tree protection.

I first looked at a community called Maple Ridge, which was beautiful but their list of restrictions and requirements was SCARY!

[n74tg]

Even if you do get a copy and read (and accept as reasonable) the "existing" restrictions/covenants --

that doesn't mean that "tomorrow" there won't be new restrictions that will prevent you from doing what you want (and which was acceptable just yesterday). 

Oh, and maybe the biggest reason of all, POA/HOA "dues" never get smaller over time, but the do get bigger.

[CREATIVE1]

Even if you do get a copy and read (and accept as reasonable) the "existing" restrictions/covenants --

that doesn't mean that "tomorrow" there won't be new restrictions that will prevent you from doing what you want (and which was acceptable just yesterday). 

Oh, and maybe the biggest reason of all, POA/HOA "dues" never get smaller over time, but the do get bigger.

Absolutely true.  That's why I'll have a seat on the board.  They always want an accountant!

[Jared Drake]

I'll probably end up going and asking for a list of restrictions, like you guys have advised. Just from driving around the place, they appear to be pretty lax on enforcing things. This place is way out in the woods, with the Illinois River running through it. A lot of the mobiles are rentals and even the stick built houses aren't super impressive. Although, in one section of the place there are some super nice homes. The only problem I'm having is now that I've finally got the money to buy land, I can't find any 5 acres or less. I'm doing all my searching on the internet because I hate talking to realtors. They get so pushy. Anyway, thanks for the advice everyone.
Jared

[Squirl]

How developed is it?  They give these lots away in the Poconos.  See how many people have moved in and ask for your lot for free if you are building.  Many people like to live around other people.  If there is nobody else in the neighborhood, all dues fall to you.  I spent a few years living in these communities.  Most large cities have less restrictions on daily life.  They are for people who want a life style exactly like everyone else.  If it is developed, I would find out as much as you can about all the people living there.  They will be the people in power and many times they moved there to impose that power on others.

I have many personal horror stories and would not do it.  Much of the time the company or it's reps usually hold on to power in the area.  These associations are quasi-government and have that force when it comes to the law.  They have been given huge powers over the years by the courts.

[NM_Shooter]

Even if you do get a copy and read (and accept as reasonable) the "existing" restrictions/covenants --

that doesn't mean that "tomorrow" there won't be new restrictions that will prevent you from doing what you want (and which was acceptable just yesterday). 

Oh, and maybe the biggest reason of all, POA/HOA "dues" never get smaller over time, but the do get bigger.

Another really crappy thing about the restrictions / covenants / whatever, is that they are never written well.  I can deal with well defined rules.  I hate rules that are open to interpretation.  Here's an example...

We have a night sky protection clause in our village.  It is written:

Corrales Village Code, Section 18-41, specifically clause (a) which states:
(a)  All exterior lighting shall be arranged and shaded so as to confine the illumination to the property of its source.


The intent of this is to keep people from having stadium type lights or bright security lights creating a nasty environment for those who like to sit in the dark and enjoy the evening. 

But if you take that above restriction literally, any illumination from any outside light that you can see (from off their property) is in violation, no matter how small.  Note that there is no intensity restriction on the light. 

That is a crappy ordinance as written.  I like the intent, but it is open to interpretation.  Beware POA members.  They get this little power trip thing going on and are also a PIA.

-f-

[harry51]

There is a large subdivision here in our county (mostly, overlaps a bit into two others) with a HOA and CC&R's. In California, they have the power of foreclosure as a remedy for non-payment of HOA dues, and I see the foreclosure notices in the paper from time to time.

On a slightly different note, one reason some people in that subdivision have quit paying the dues is that changing rules and interpretation of rules concerning septic systems have rendered some lots unbuildable.

Before you buy, please be sure the property will support a septic system and that water is available with a well you can afford if these are not furnished by a community system.

Another thing that has been a bone of contention is the equestrian trail that runs through the parcels. It's mostly near the front, or I think in some cases the back, property lines, but it's ground you pay taxes on but can't use or fence off because it's protected by an easement. Bothers some people, others not so much. Seems there would be a privacy issue as well, as someone sitting on a horse could see right over even a 6' fence.

And of course, most of us move to the country in the first place to get away from the need for 6' board fences and such !

[Jared Drake]

I see these lots in the foreclosure notices too. And I mean tons of them, constantly. Maybe Harry has given me the clue as to why so many people are letting them go. I guess I'll just let go of that idea and focus on property. When I'm ready, I may place an ad in the paper looking for 3 acres or so. Thanks guys.
Jared

[Bishopknight]

imo, unless you're going to build what everyone else is building, POAs are POS 

[MaineRhino]

In our HOA I volunteered to be the Pres., now I'm stuck with it as nobody else wants to deal with it.

Luckily we haven't had too many problems with the basic rules, as we all tend to look the other way and mind our own business. Our homes are all different, and we are not told how to plow, paint, grow, mow or other nitpicky things. The 10 lots here split the yearly maintenance bill, and it works pretty well so far.

Even still, our next home will NOT deal with any type of HOA or right-of-way restrictions.

Do you really want someone (neighbors) watching over you and your property?

[CREATIVE1]

Our situation is a land lease from Tacoma Power and Light, not exactly an HOA.  I don't like rules either, but in my case the tree cutting ban was a big reason I bought there.  I was looking at a 2 1/2 acre lot on Summit Lake near Olympia, one of those long skinny ones, and am so thankful I didn't buy it.  The owner of the lot next door--and the land is steep--stripped all the trees and left a "stump farm."  It would've ruined the land I intended to buy, and is happening all around the lake.

[MountainDon]

Don't know if anyone needs any more input on this... but...

As owners of some rental properties in a city condo development with a HOA I strongly second the note to read and understand the covenants before hand. Then also attend the HOA meetings and keep up on things that will change. Our doesn't even allow the outside drying of laundry    but that doesn't seem to bother any of the property owners or the rental tenants. Of course our rental aggreement has lots of do's and don't as well.

The upside of the agreement is everyone knows there will be no laundry strung from the balcony to the tree over there, that the grass will be cut regularly, that there will be no 60 foot ham radio antenna mast, no "parts cars" sitting on the driveway....

[Okie_Bob]

Jared, I know the area you are looking at as it was where my family came from and I have visited many times over the years.
That is about as poor a location as any I've even known about and you should be able to buy land for almost nothing, cause that is what it's worth. The new highway replaced old Hwy 33 a few years back and Kansas, OK was known as Little Kansas till then. Also, the new road bypassed Leach, Ok, and the grave yard their have a bunch of my relatives planted there.
If you want to be on the Ill River you'll find property more expensive but, you should be able to find all the land you want for
under $1000 an acre if you really want to live up there??? Don't think I'd want to live anywhere around there. That is the Cherokee land and extremely poor. The land is extremely poor and never was worth anything. If it were me, I'd head on down south a hundred miles and find some land between Poteau and Broken Bow on Mountain Fork river or Beaver Bend area. Still should be around $250 an acre and much more scenic. Don't misunderstand, I love Oklahoma and I'd live there today if there was any way to make a living.
OkieBob

[Jared Drake]

Bob, Kansas is only 20 minutes from where I live and work now in Siloam Springs. I want to have land and a cabin there because it's where my brother has 20 acres and my sister and brother in law have 80 acres. Yeah, it's rocky, hilly land, but 1000 bucks an acre is nowhere to be had. I looked at land this weekend on hwy 10 and it was 16K for 4 acres. 19.5K for 4.6 acres and 10K for 2 acres. Small parcels are impossible to find around here. I called Arkhoma Realty and they said they get calls every day from people looking for small bits of land. So I'll keep looking and I know I'll pay more than 1K/acre for it, even though I agree with you, it's not worth it.
Jared

[Okie_Bob]

I think if you'd get off the beaten path a little more and keep looking you can find it petty cheap.
I agree with your reasons too. Family can make a huge difference in where you can live. And Siloam Springs is
a great place to live in my book.
OkieBob

[Jared Drake]

I'd love to be WAY off the beaten path, but good luck finding land for sale like that around here. I'm seriously considering putting an add the in the local papers asking for 2-5 acres.
Jared

[ScottA]

I'm not far from Siloam, maybe 35-40 miles. Lived around here most of my life. The days of cheap land (under 1k per acre) are long gone unless you are buying 80 acres or more. Expect to pay 2-5k per acre for a small 2-5 acre lot. It will be more if it has water on it. Be careful where you buy because in some places it's hard to get water. 10 gallon per hour wells are not uncommon in the highlands. You might try around Peggs, OK for the lowest prices. That's in cherokee county. Mayes county will be more usually. Delaware county has some areas of low cost land as well but they can be pretty remote. We paid 4k per acre in Mayes county for 3 acres of better land with water and hiway access.

[OldDog]

I don't want ant part of it!

I feel if my name is on the deed I will do whatever I want on the land.

Being a Ham Radio operator I am sure some neighbors do not like my antenna towers and I really don't care.

I sure don't want to be in the situation where the neighbor PITA has any input.  Those people never seem to have a life outside of peeing everybody off.