Re: Indigenous Housing

glenn-k · June 29, 2006, 01:09:14 AM

I'm ready for spelunking anytime--- I am a troglodyte you know.

Yosemite_Indian · June 29, 2006, 01:20:06 AM

QuoteSorry to overwhelm you - I got excited. :-/

Please refresh your page as I just added more to my previous posting.

That is a beautiful photo!

In 1911 or 1901 George Wharton wrote that when he went to Yosemite to find Merriam's "Miwoks". He found a bunch of Paiutes sitting there. He had to go to outskirts of Yosemite Valley to find whom he considered the "Yosemite" Miwoks.

There are NO Yosemite Miwoks.

Wharton went down to Lemoore and Tulare and found Paiutes sitting there too. That is why there are Paiutes in Lemoore...

They were extremely war-like and over run other tribes. The Yokuts were a war-like people also. Some, like the Chowchilla Yokuts (who are not Miwoks as been falsely reported) joined the Monos on the western side to try to fight the tide of what we considered an "invasion".

That is a cool photo!

Jonesy, there are quite a few great Indian sterograph photos around. I will try to find a great website I found earliar.

Here is the story of Stone Mother or Tubee Bia in Paiute. The story goes she was married to a Grizzley (Yosemite Indian - not Miwok) they were giants. He didn't treat her very well so she left him. Her footprints can still be found at Mono Lake. She traveled to Yerington and found a man there. They got married and had several children. The children fought constantly so the father told them all to leave. They all went to different directions and that is how the Pitt Rivers, Washoes, Shoshones and Paiutes were made. The Paiutes stayed with their father and mother, but the rest left. Stone Mother was so saddened that she sat there with her basket and cried Pryamid Lake. That is the story of how Pyramid Lake was created. :'(

Here is the Stone Mother at Pyramid Lake, which is HUGE! it is about 3 stories high. She sits next to the Pyramid:

:'(

Here is the quick story about her with some great photos. I should have just copied/pasted...

http://www.crosbylodge.com/pyramid_lake/pl_map_stonemother.htm

The story varies, but is basically the same.

Wolf was our deity and Coyote was like Loki, you know his brother, but a trouble-maker.

jonseyhay · June 29, 2006, 01:51:27 AM

Here is a link to a site with lots of different viewers. They even have one that works with computer screens.
http://www.berezin.com/3D/viewers1.htm
http://www.berezin.com/3D/screenscope.htm
Yosemite Indian do your people still practice traditional crafts. Stuff like basketmaking, clothing and footwear. Did they do any sort of carving wood or bone? The New Zealand Maori had a great tradition in this
Here are some of mine. Traditionally, these are whalebone, mine are beef.

Yosemite_Indian · June 29, 2006, 02:39:51 AM

QuoteVery interestiing and great pix.

With the education I'm getting here, I ought to be able to ask some very interesting questions of the people I know who work for YNPS.

Thanks, Yosemite Indian.

LOL

Oh Glenn I heard some people at the YNPS are in DEEEEEEP denial

You see, to believe the truth, it would destroy the chances of their friends from becoming a tribe. That is what several Paiutes believe. :-?

Then Yosemite National Park Service would be HIGHLY embarrassed.

Years ago some Paiutes had found this book written by Yosemite staff and were SHOCKED to see their ancestors were now Miwoks???

Here is the photo that made them look:

This is from a book written by a couple of Yosemite National Park employees. The problem with the title was the most of Tom Hutchings or Hudgens descendent's are Mono Paiutes. They are part of different Paiute bands and have Tom's paperwork yearly done Indian census rolls till he died. He was always Paiute.

So some of his descendent's wanted to know where they got this information so they went to talk to the person who wrote the book who still worked at the park. They were directed to the small Yosemite Research Center above the Indian Museum in Yosemite. There they asked to speak to the person and they had said he had a stroke and that he did not see most people. So they showed the librarian the photo of their ancestor and asked where he had gotten this information. She took him to his office located in the small research room and pointed to rolls and rolls of the 1928 California Indian Applications. We always believed they were covered by the Privacy Act, but the librarian advised them that they could be found at the National Archives at San Bruno. Then she told them that they had the photo in question in their catalog file and took them right to photos.

Here it was the photo, being his descendent's they already had it, but this is the actual photo from YNPS Research Library;

Than they turned it over and this is what was on the back;

Like they always knew. It said "Mono" for Mono Paiute. They were NOT HAPPY CAMPERS.

Last year the Yosemite Fund had some Guide Markers put into the park with Tom Hutchings THE MIWOK and Chief Dick THE MIWOK.

You see, we Paiutes believe that YNPS should have integrity concerning the history of our people, the original Indians of Yosemite and the history of the Park.

They found more photos in their catalog and many photos that showed "Piutes" were not in the catalog files and a couple photos did not have the titles on them? Like the one "Piute Chiefs Lodge" on one of my first posts.

This photo at Yosemite National Park Research Center did not have the title "Piute Chief's Lodge". The photo at the park was cropped, only showing the photo, but no title. :-?

Years ago YNPS went into an unheard of 15 year agreement with the American Indian Council of Mariposa aka the Southern Sierra Miwuks. Here is the agreement below:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planning/lodge/html/ylarp_exsum.htm

This non-profit group is made up of current and former employees of Yosemite National Park Service.

They are also going for federal recognition, which some people believe would be a conflict of interest. To become a federally recognized tribe you have to have historical documentation to prove you were always in Yosemite.

Glenn, do you think that YNPS is gonna to admit they were wrong?

(Even though they are terribly wrong in a lot of Paiutes opinion).

It made some Paiutes, who are directly tied to Yosemite, read more of the parks and certain employees documentation and they were SHOCKED!

We always believed the YNPS was doing the right thing, but we KNOW now that they were not looking after the true history of Yosemite, but could be manipulated...and some Paiutes have the proof.

Some people have said no one at YNPS has ever read Lafayette H. Bunnell's book, which was the only person to meet and write about Chief Tenaya and his band. :-/

We Paiutes are saddened that YNPS does want to address this. :-/ , but it is the truth and the Park should have the highest integrity, plus they are killing off the history of the Paiutes of Yosemite.

They are now trying to work with this "Quisling" from a Mono Paiute group. A group of ONE. We believe because of his ego, the park will just continue and his him for validation. Yet in our opinion he doesn't know squat!

If he did he would've known about the history of the Paiutes in Yosemite.

The truth Ahwahneechees.

*Also the story of Chief Tenaya was missing from Yosemite Indian Museum. The MAIN MAN.

Here is a short bio about Chief Tenaya;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Tenaya

glenn-k · June 29, 2006, 08:53:00 AM

Yosemite Indian, I have been around people talking about trying to get recognized. I know some of them. I have met some of the people helping them. It seems some may be going for the obvious future profit potential. Politics being what they are, are in full force in the park. I am all for the Indian businesses if it helps them and they use it for the benefit of all who are willing to work for it -- not just for the group who has control of the purse strings. It seems that alliances should be formed and groups should work together based on truth but politics and big money many times do not mix with truth. I have been upstairs and in the history room at the museum. Even had a meal or two there with friends and YNPS employees.

Even if there is little chance of changes because of the issues and politics involved, you can bet that I will present some information to my friends. Truth is still truth. Should make for lively conversation at the next get together.

Do your people have gatherings that the public are allowed at? Here they have PowWows and Big Time. There is a group from Stockton who does traditional dancing and drumming at the PowWows, that comes here. I had a good conversation with the head man of the group. Very tall -- nice guy. I think it's great that some care enough to continue to try to pass on the old traditions before it is lost.

Jonesy --did you carve those --Are you an honorary Maori?

Thanks for the viewer link, Jonesy. I guess we should start a page of public domain stereo pictures for educational purposes- maybe in off the topic area, then we could share and print old pictures at home that should be preserved and studied along with information pertinent to each one.

jonseyhay · June 29, 2006, 06:48:24 PM

Yes the bone carvings are mine. I'm not Maori but spent a fair bit of my youth on Marae. Mrs Goanna jonsey and bunch of my neices and nephews are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marae

Yosemite_Indian · June 29, 2006, 07:45:57 PM

QuoteYosemite Indian, I have been around people talking about trying to get recognized. I know some of them. I have met some of the people helping them. It seems some may be going for the obvious future profit potential. Politics being what they are, are in full force in the park. I am all for the Indian businesses if it helps them and they use it for the benefit of all who are willing to work for it -- not just for the group who has control of the purse strings. It seems that alliances should be formed and groups should work together based on truth but politics and big money many times do not mix with truth. I have been upstairs and in the history room at the museum. Even had a meal or two there with friends and YNPS employees.

Even if there is little chance of changes because of the issues and politics involved, you can bet that I will present some information to my friends. Truth is still truth. Should make for lively conversation at the next get together.

Do your people have gatherings that the public are allowed at? Here they have PowWows and Big Time. There is a group from Stockton who does traditional dancing and drumming at the PowWows, that comes here. I had a good conversation with the head man of the group. Very tall -- nice guy. I think it's great that some care enough to continue to try to pass on the old traditions before it is lost.

Jonesy --did you carve those --Are you an honorary Maori?

Thanks for the viewer link, Jonesy. I guess we should start a page of public domain stereo pictures for educational purposes- maybe in off the topic area, then we could share and print old pictures at home that should be preserved and studied along with information pertinent to each one.

Glenn,

We don't object to them going for federal recognition. That is not even what most Paiutes care about. What we object to is that Yosemite Mono Paiute people were implied, changed to Miwuks. In some cases we have been called "visitors" and "late-comers" when we were the original band of Chief Tenaya and that can be proven. :-?

Some of our ancestors have disappeared from Yosemite history, like Captain John and now even Chief Tenaya is being side-lined to obscurity. In some cases Chief Tenaya's story has been sanitizied and many Mono Paiute references about his life taken out.

Many of the Yosemite Paiute photos I have posted here are not in Yosemite Research Library and should be.

Than some of our descendents have been changed to Miwoks like Chief Dick, Lancisco Wilson, Old Rube, Mono Brown (even his name says he was not Miwok), Lucy Sam-Brown, Captain Sam and Suzie Sam, their children, Young Charlie, Tom Hutchings and so on.

Glenn, we have checked and there are practically NO Miwok men in Yosemite. Most lived in camps down in the foothills and some went to work or dance there, but when it comes to Indians who lived there, they were bascially Paiutes. Most Miwuk women married white miners and settlers really early and moved on. Now some of their descendents are claiming they were always part of the Miwuk culture. Yet when we checked most were really Casson or other type of Yokuts. Yokuts were not the original people of Yosemite. They moved into the area to work for Yosemite around the early 1900s from Madera and Merced counties.

Now in books, publications, and pamphlets some of our own people are now Miwuk leaders. They do claim Chief Bautista as their chief, yet he was James Savage's right hand man. He helped keep the Indians in line for Jim Savage when they were digging for gold and captured run-a-ways. How can a chief of the docile Miwoks be the leader of war-like Paiutes and Yokuts? That could never happen and never did.

For their petition for federal recognition they used Tom Hutchings, the Mono Paiute man above, as one that kept their people together, yet none of his descendents are in their group. Nor do they want to be. Why change him and use him, but not have his people in your group? Why even use him in the first place.

The same with Chief Dick and other Paiutes.

They even took the title of Captain away from Captain Jim. They gave the title to an unknown Miwuk man. Yet Captain Jim had some of the most children around Yosemite, Hetch Hetchy, Mono Lake and Bridgeport. Several of his daughters were the most famous basketmakers in Yosemite. Yet Yosemite's Indian Expert (which is a joke) had their husband Young Charlie as a Miwuk chief, yet he was Paiute;

In one publication that people use as a big reference that had Tom Hutchings as a Miwok states that Young Charlie is a Yosemite Miwuk Chief on pages 147 and 150.

here are the references;

*notice the book refers to CAPTAIN Jim as Pete Jim. Yet those they claim are Miwuk royality are "Captains" and "Chiefs", yet they were not.

Then in the same book, page 79, the official Yosemite Indian expert has Jennie Charlie-Sam as a Mono Lake Paiute. Young Charlies sister.

That is a few BIG mistakes they 'suddenly' created. We expected bett

jonseyhay · June 30, 2006, 12:11:41 AM

http://www.travel-pictures-gallery.com/imagepagenewz04.html

Here is some information on the houses on a Marae The main house is the Wharenui or meeting house, these buildings usually represents a notable male ancestor of the Marae/hapu. They are carved inside and out with stylized images of the Iwi's (or tribe's) ancestor, although the style used for the faces varies from tribe to tribe. The ridgepole along the top of the roof represents the backbone of the person. The houses always have names, sometimes the name of a famous ancestor of the iwi or sometimes a figure from M[ch257]ori mythology. Sometimes meeting houses are built where many M[ch257]ori are present, even though it is not the location of a tribe; typically, a college or school with many M[ch257]ori students
The Wharenui is used for Hui (meetings/conferences), tangi (funerals), and moe (accommodation/sleeping).
While a Wharenui is considered sacred, it is not a church or house of worship, but religious rituals may take place in front of or inside it. No food may be taken into a M[ch257]ori meeting house.

The Wharekai or dining Hall is where food is eaten. There is no "special' protocol associated with the Wharekai except normal standards of decency and conduct.

glenn-k · June 30, 2006, 12:31:20 AM

I saw a movie called the Whale Rider , Jonesy. It was Maori I think -- excellent movie --- How true to life? I don't know. :-/

glenn-k · June 30, 2006, 12:50:23 AM

Yosemite Indian, I loved the cave and Kiva like house. I am a troglodyte -- how could I not.

There is a different feeling when you are surounded by earth as I am right now. Kind of like the ledgendary vampire having to return to his native soil at night. I do not like to be away from my cabin and it is always a hurried driving desire to get back from the valley below to my hole in the side of the mountain.

We spent the good part of a day exploring the Lava tubes in Northern California.

I have considered building some Native American style structures on my property. They just seem to fit with the earth better--- not like the houses built in the urban sprawl of the big cities.

I have always planned on landscaping my uphill patio with a miniature scene of a Native American pueblo. I have a picture of Acoma I was considering modeling it after. Sassy says after I finish more of the cabin. :-/

jonseyhay · June 30, 2006, 12:59:25 AM

Don't know about the film mate, I haven't seen it. I guess that like most movies it has something of real life in it.

Yosemite_Indian · June 30, 2006, 03:48:11 AM

QuoteYosemite Indian, I loved the cave and Kiva like house. I am a troglodyte -- how could I not.

There is a different feeling when you are surrounded by earth as I am right now. Kind of like the legendary vampire having to return to his native soil at night. I do not like to be away from my cabin and it is always a hurried driving desire to get back from the valley below to my hole in the side of the mountain.

We spent the good part of a day exploring the Lava tubes in Northern California.

I have considered building some Native American style structures on my property. They just seem to fit with the earth better--- not like the houses built in the urban sprawl of the big cities.

I have always planned on landscaping my uphill patio with a miniature scene of a Native American pueblo. I have a picture of Acoma I was considering modeling it after. Sassy says after I finish more of the cabin. :-/

There is nothing like feeling the cool earth surround you on a hot day.

It is a great feeling to smell the earth.

Hey Glenn did you know that the Paiutes where up in the Lava Beds with Captain Jack. They aligned themselves with Captain Jack and then the survivors ran up to Oregon. Chief Ochio the chief in the Oregon photo was one of them and so was Polino. Sarah Winnemucca tried to make peace between our people and the whites, but some listened and some didn't. That is why some Paiutes love her and some don't.

I agree about history, especially when it affects my people.

I don't see why they just couldn't do it with out having to change things. I think because they couldn't find enough credible information. There were no Yosemite Miwoks...so they had to make some up...

Actually this was all about Indian Housing. It is a loooong story, but when I have time I will explain.

Here is some more Paiute living quarters in Yosemite:

The above is just lumber propped up against a tree to make a quick home.

The one below shows that Yosemite area Paiutes used all available types of boards, lumber and what-nots to create quick camps. Paiutes were nomadic and followed the seasonal foods.

Jonesy those houses look like the Native American style houses found in the Pacific Northwest part of North America, like the Haida and others.

I heard that some Native American languages are related to Polynesian, like the Maoris.

jonseyhay · June 30, 2006, 05:18:36 AM

Debate has raged over where the Maori people of New Zealand originally came from. There was some thought that they had originated from the Americas, possibly the south; this I think was based on some similarities in language.

It is commonly assumed by Maori that they arrived in a fleet of seven great ocean going waka (canoes) that came to New Zealand around 700 years ago. The seven Waka in the great Heke from Hawaiki where: Aotea, Kurahaupo, Mataatua, Tainui, Takitimu, Te Arawa and Tokomaru. Most believe their tupuna reached these shores on one or more of those Waka in ancient times. Every tribe knows which waka their ancestors arrived in. This was the last great human migration – the final leg in an epic journey that started 6000 years ago. Although the Maori had no written history as we would know it, these stories and legends would have been handed down as an oral history. They would have also been recorded in the carvings and tukutuku panel's of the Wharenui. Each panel's design signifies a certain tribal historical event or legend. Thus, the tukutuku itself is a way of preserving tribal lore and helping transmit it to the next generation.

BTW. The Maori name for New Zealand is Aotearoa, (the Land of the Long White Cloud) this, because that is what it looks like when approached by sea.

More recent thought was that they could have come from Taiwan or Indonesia. These great seafarers reached Fiji, and then eventually moved on, finally settling in New Zealand about 700 years ago. Now their search for an answer has led to a startling finding that the men and women appear to have come from different places. The men appear to have come from PNG, and the women from Taiwan. This, based on DNA evidence.

Yosemite Indian,
Did the Paiute have any sort of tribal meeting house or central building for gatherings? If so do you have any detailed information on how they where built? What construction sequence, structure, materials, etc. Possibly some photos of the interior that you could share with us. Is there any carving or design work inside these buildings?

glenn-k · June 30, 2006, 02:14:52 PM

Yosemite Indian, after my burned out modem this morning I am out of time to post today but you can be sure that tonight I will get back to this very interesting discussion.

There is a great rock or mountain sticking up from a field and hilly area in northern California near the Lava Beds National Monument somewhere--- there was much ancient art on it. Was that by your people.?

Yosemite_Indian · June 30, 2006, 02:53:43 PM

Jonesy, we Paiutes were not like the Maori and sadly did not have the same type of housing.

We were more like the Aboriginees of Austrailia. We were nomadic and had a territory that we travel around in 'hunting n gathering'.

I remember seeing that movie "Rabbit Proof Fence" and that is how we lived. It could be the story of the Paiutes.

The Aboriginees have rock art so do we. Our is called Petroglyphs. There are some located in North eastern Yosemite National Park around the eastern side.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glenn

I haven't gone to the Lava beds. Everytime I try to go I end up at Susanville Rancheria visiting people I know or end up taking the trip ot Mount Shasta.

My cousin has been there several times when he stayed up around there. There are Paiutes in that area. They are called Kidu-Tucketta or Groundhog eaters.

Here is the more Maori style Native American culture type of housing from the Pacific Northwest, there are better photos, but these are a couple of quickies. This is only Haida style housing;

Large houses with huge totem poles in front.

old black and white photo. the entrances were the circle round holes in the front. The person has a huge mask on his head, so it makes it look small, but was pretty big.

here is a carved model of a replica Haida house.

I have seen where the front's of the Haida houses were carved also. Their carvings are very interesting and well known around the world. They are just one tribe there are others, but I can't spell their names...

They had their moieties carved on the totems and all over the place. Killer Whale, Shark, Bear, Raven, Eagle, Frog, and others.

The Killer Whale is like the Marois. Here is an example of their style of carving on agrilyte (i know I am spelling that wrong

)

http://www.tribalcrafts.com/hacpg4a.htm

TxDirtDigger · June 30, 2006, 04:05:43 PM

Not certain how to post a link, but here's the address to one close to my neck of the woods:

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/villagers/hank1/index.html

As Glenn said in an earlier post - just add poly and windows and you'd have a pretty decent shelter. The more I think about it the better I like the idea . . . . . .

glenn-k · June 30, 2006, 09:59:37 PM

Here's a link to the Whale Rider.

http://www.whaleriderthemovie.co.nz/start.html

A screen shot showing a building from the movie-- wonderful scenery and a great movie showing what I assume is accurate Maori culture -possibly enhanced a bit for the movie. :-/

glenn-k · June 30, 2006, 10:24:56 PM

The design of the HANK1 house could be easily and safely made with a few modifications using Mike Oehlers specs. Windows could be added under gables if desired. Considerations would have to be made for drainage since you would be deviating from Mikes designs but it could still be done.

I could easily see a 24' square, round or octagon design here. 8-)

We flew into Susanville several years ago, Yosemite Indian. We rented a Jeep Wagoneer and traveled the area. I think that was when we went to The Lava tubes.

Did your people have any presence in the Lassen Volcanic Park area -We hiked to Bumpass Hell - and what about Shasta- I have heard it is special to some cultures.

Photograph by Daniel Mayer. Taken in October 2003

TxDirtDigger · June 30, 2006, 10:44:48 PM

Ok, temptation is getting the best of me. Gonna have to stroll about the property a bit and see what kind of a location I can find for such a structure. Glenn - I'd be interested in getting more of your input in regards to accounting for drainage. It appears the original was more earth bermed than underground, but I assume one would still need to build in such a way that rain is routed away from the structure as much as possible.

glenn-k · June 30, 2006, 10:54:00 PM

Depends on the property - hillside would work combined with french drains -

If you wanted to do something bermed on flatter ground it could be done - Mike had ideas for that too.

Half buried on flat ground may require decent sumps. A hill and bermed with earth cover may be a better choice on flat ground so you don't wake up drownded --that's probably not a real word but looked cute in this context. Flash floods would need to be considered ---I hate it when that happens. :-/

Re: Indigenous Housing

glenn-k

Yosemite_Indian

glenn-k

jonseyhay

Yosemite_Indian

Yosemite_Indian

glenn-k

jonseyhay

Yosemite_Indian

Yosemite_Indian

jonseyhay

glenn-k

glenn-k

jonseyhay

glenn-k

Yosemite_Indian

jonseyhay

glenn-k

Yosemite_Indian

TxDirtDigger

jraabe

glenn-k

glenn-k

TxDirtDigger

glenn-k